EP 429 – Let’s Talk About Sex

The author of "And It Was Very Good" sits in the hot seat to discuss Latter-day Saint sexuality, including its many pitfalls.

[dropcap]T[/dropcap]his week’s show is special. We’re joined by the anonymous author of And It Was Very Good, a Latter-day Saint book about sex. But this isn’t just any book. This is a frank, specific book about sexuality as seen through the lens of Latter-day Saints.

But are we comfortable with sexuality as Latter-day Saints? What hurdles do newlyweds face? Does being virtual mean being asexual for too many, thus making sex more difficult in marriage?

Is US Latter-day Saint culture less healthy when it comes to sexuality than that found elsewhere? Has the purity movement ruined sex for Mormons?

The author has excellent, well-researched insights on sexuality. Tune in!

For a FREE pdf copy of the book, send the author an email.

Warning: While this is a perfectly acceptable episode discussing sexuality in frank terms, some audiences might find it explicit.


This Week In Mormons:
[0:00] Alright folks so here we are with a special week of this week in Mormons where we’re going to do a little interview we’re going to set the news aside that we usually talk about and instead
we’re going to talk about sex that’s right and then I’m sure most of you were rolling your eyes saying the worst person on Earth,
to talk about sex right now is Jeff and you’re probably right but here we are this is the hand we’ve been dealt I’m very excited to talk about this this week though cuz a new book called and it was very good
that’s essentially an LDS guide to sexuality and I think it’s really fascinating and I have the author with me but the author wishes to remain.
I know it’s it’s officially authored by goodly parents should I just call you goodly can I call you googly as a nickname or do you prefer something else.

And It Was Very Good:
[0:44] I think it’s Earthly parent the goodly parents would be nice I think that implies that I’m rich I’m a goodly parents are good if you think that way.

This Week In Mormons:
[0:51] I’m sorry it’s Earthly parents I can call you or can I call you Earth’s Earthly parents Anonymous Jim Joe.

And It Was Very Good:
[0:58] My friends call me EP.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:00] I’m going to call you Bernie Sanders the house that sound.

And It Was Very Good:
[1:03] Oh that doesn’t sound good how about you pee.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:06] Epok I call you but if it works we’ll do we pee so I imagine EP why don’t you want anyone to know who you are it’s not like you’re an informant on a nightly news program or anything that’s so skinny.

And It Was Very Good:
[1:21] Well,
I would be fine with it however I’m married and my wife not so much so this is a book that I wrote and my wife edited for our children but also for the larger Latter-day Saints,
public as as we run it but.
One of the conditions was she didn’t want people at church to be looking at her funny and thinking that they had some kind of insight into our sex life and so I have to remain anonymous and I’m honoring her wishes.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:53] I mean I guess that’s fair having read the book I don’t think there’s anything that’s like rocking the boat too hard there I think the boat I think the book is is it’s clear.
I think it’s a matter of fact but just so you know on my end knowing the very little about your personal life or your ward,
I would read it and just assume you’re a wise person who has done research and knows what you’re talkin about as opposed to someone who was writing about your own sexual preferences for all the sea just so you know if it helps your wife feel any better.

And It Was Very Good:
[2:25] She will.

This Week In Mormons:
[2:27] Okay good please please pass that a lot I hope she listens to this and understand your all is all is well all is well,
you know the shame on the judgy people in your ward for caring but whatever what what’s like the background behind you said you wanted to write this for your children and for anybody else but
I clearly there’s a deeper Drive behind it what is the impetus behind that’s what got you going on this whole project write a book about Mormons.
Real sex for Mormons.

And It Was Very Good:
[2:55] Call Jeff I thought for a long time that this topic was something that was important and under
underrepresented it was hard for example when I was trying to find some of that that would help my sister when she was getting married I couldn’t find a sex manual that I thought was
appropriate to be honest I ended up getting something that may have been wildly inappropriate but at it was at least detailed and,
accurate and had the best scientific evidence behind it and that was better than I thought
leaving everything to chance so to speak I myself had red
a book that my parents left on the very top shelf called
everything you wanted to know about sex but were afraid to ask I read that before puberty and I I thought it was fantastic and really helped me to navigate something that could be otherwise rather uncomfortable,
or confusing time of life and I felt it helped me also in my own marriage and I wanted that for my kids in the.
In the process of writing the book I also interviewed 95,
members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and ask them about their wedding night in particular and that also opened up the idea that
wedding nights and sexuality in general can be brought they can be really really painful physically but especially emoji.

This Week In Mormons:
[4:17] What you’re kidding.

And It Was Very Good:
[4:20] Well we have a we have a wonderful culture and a wonderful religion that can really support
a very broad expansive beautiful view of sexuality but,
we also have a culture that leaves us at the altar so to speak in terms of being comfortable with sexuality and so there are some gaps that just
seem to exist at one really obvious one once you see it is that we feel or pretty easy to feel that.
To be virtuous is to be asexual to deny our sexuality to take.
Yeah I did not rain in our sexuality so much as take her sexuality behind the barn and shoot it dead that kind of thing.
And that’s not helpful in marriage that as soon as you’re there then it’s it’s problematic,
then you find it difficult to access your sexuality at all for some or to access it for years and really claimed it for others and so,
that’s just one example of where we’re left by our culture a little bit shy where we want to be and if that if that Gap can be bridged with more information,
then let’s bridge that Gap and get people into a really good situation that was the idea.

This Week In Mormons:
[5:37] You know I like it what why you think I agree with you but why you think we get that way is Latter-Day Saints I mean it’s just because like you said we work so hard,
to be virtuous that we just misinterpret the notion of sexuality rather than realizing it is it is something to be nurtured and utilized we’re just so instead we sort of.
Pervert is a funny verb to use it given this context but but we prefer it in that sense and we just.
We will try to like you said take it out in the back and shoot it and assume it is evil that sexuality is evil and I and I mean why do we get that way is it just.
Are non-stop course to seek virtue we assume that means we have to be asexual creatures that just screwed us up later on.

And It Was Very Good:
[6:23] I don’t think it would have happened Jeff honestly if we hadn’t been in the United States in a certain time in history the,
this culture that is gotten to be fairly negative about sexuality in the last say 120 years is really weird where it came up and,
in particular in the late 70s and early 80s there was a larger Purity movement that if you can remember,
and I I do remember the object lessons in church that described our Purity as being something like a piece of gum and how.

This Week In Mormons:
[6:57] Oh yes there was a.

And It Was Very Good:
[6:58] Feel if you were a chewed piece of gum.
Would anybody else want to chew the gum that sort of thing that isn’t just that isn’t something that we came up with that something that has been in the larger Christian Community and was going around the same time and I think that in many ways we fell.
Pray to that at about the same time that there was a reaction against the sexual revolution in the 70s I can’t I’m not old enough to really remember the sexual revolution of the 70 that was alive but not aware at that level
but I think that also has something to do with it so I think that it’s not just that,
our religion gets here but our culture specifically United States culture got us here I don’t know that this is quite the the issue that you have in and say France and members of Latter Day Saints or or in a German accent just not.

This Week In Mormons:
[7:47] Yeah that’s what I was about to ask you that I did any of your research take you down that kind of an Avenue did you discover any sort of a difference between North American Mormons versus.
That’s what I mean cuz you know Europeans are famously more,
sexually liberated quote on quote right I mean even if it if you’ll forgive my digression or but I like to follow the film industry I have my whole life.
And I’ve noticed,
out here in the states in a we have pretty high tolerance I’d say culturally for movies with language with a lot of violence especially between PG-13 type movies but,
if there’s a whiff of sexuality we get very very uptight about it whereas a lot of European European Cinema they think the fact that we love violence so much is just strange and abhorrent,
and where they think sexuality something with more normal I don’t know it’s not perfect parallel,
but I am curious did any of your research take you down that sort of path were you saw some of the differences globally as Mormons or was it more restricted to the North American Latter Day Saints.

And It Was Very Good:
[8:46] So most of my work was on the North American Latter-Day Saints but there were a few pieces that do come up pretty much immediately we have had,
a lot of abstinence-only sex education not comprehensive sex education in the u.s. in the last several decades and.
Abstinence-only sex education is one of the worst thing that could happen to you as a human being in in this kind of culture because it leads to
higher rates of teen pregnancy that leads to higher rates of
earlier first intercourse that leads to having more sex partners Lifetime and its Associated also with more sexually transmitted infections. Which I think we’d want for our kids or that we want for ourselves and the sex education is just
better in general in the in the in Europe,
so that’s one and then separately I did get that also back from readers that were from the UK and Germany that that emailed me back and and suggested that maybe it wasn’t quite the gap,
over there at least a different Gap they sell gaps but it’s not it’s not nearly the same they have better sex education so we have more to overcome here.

[9:59] Interesting lie enough if you talk to random,
I don’t mean just any therapist it’s a family therapist not a certified sex therapist that you might go to so let’s say that you you decided to talk about,
and work out something with your sex life with a family therapist that maybe LDS Services is suggested the number of hours that these therapist may have been trained specifically in therapy in sexuality rather,
might be zero or something close to it and they may also have been raised on,
onam on the abstinence-only sex ad so it’s it’s shocking even the the teachers,
may not have taken the course so we’re in a place where we’re told his parents that is our job it is our responsibility,
at to be the primary source of sex education for our children and it’s at a time when even though information seems to be everywhere teaching of the information is not,
so you can certainly go out on YouTube or Google and find all sorts of things about sex,
very few of which I think we as as parents would want our kids to to see or be exposed to some of its complete nonsense obviously and so finding something that is accurate,
that is.

[11:12] And keeping that we would say with gospel principles that’s what I didn’t see accurate detailed and in keeping with gospel principles that that’s hard to find.
That detail part is one that is really all also not there and details important,
it’s not sufficient often to just vaguely say something that might be helpful you really have to go into some of the details in part because you want to satisfy curiosity in our kids,
because if they’re curious and they don’t get that Curiosity satisfied from us they’re going to get it satisfied somewhere else and we might not be very happy with.

This Week In Mormons:
[11:47] That’s true.
That that said so you said you said earlier that you discovered the book about sex on your parents shelf before you even hit puberty and you said it helped you and I think a lot of people listening my.
I think that could be a harmful thing right after you’re too young to discuss these sorts of things to learn in such graphic detail about sexuality and perhaps you are an anomaly in that sensitive,
piqued your curiosity in the wrong way,
what would you say to people like that and also what age what was he would you say the cutoff age for the book that you’ve written going down.

And It Was Very Good:
[12:24] So answer yeah I’ll answer both of those like want one is if you go right now in fact in the last couple of days there have been multiple.
Releases of Articles and videos on the formal lds.org website and on those in those videos one of the things that they specifically cover is.
Are you giving too much information are you,
you should you just maybe talk about the framing and not about the sexuality part of the details part and the answer they came up with his is no you should be talking about the sexuality part and have those details there and specifically the address.

[13:04] People worried that if I talk about this I’m going to encourage my kids to be experimenting or B,
sexual before they ought to be.
So that’s one answer is that the church very very recently in the in the past few days has come out in a fairly large way in supporting something more akin to comprehensive sex education.
Really wonderful and it’s a big change it’s very much welcome so that’s one,
it’s there and now it’s essentially officially endorsed that something like this is what you should be seeking to provide your kids but it doesn’t mean that you provide this book to your kids when they are,
before puberty it’s a maybe for some precocious ones that it would be the right thing to do and you are the parent I’m not your parent of your kids so decide read the book and decide and,
can read the book for free by the way we’ll talk about that so decide for yourself is it something that the conversation starter.

[14:05] Is it how it doesn’t have a piece that you can use some pieces like the first chapter on framing from the gospel perspective on what sexuality means.
Something that I entitled our families sexual articles of faith.
That that’s for me that you could even use for the right children at the right time in family home evening,
happy the most typical family home evening but I’m sure they’ll pay attention on that one,
but I’ll be honest I have kids that are in the young single adult range some that I,
would expect we’ll get married soon I think it’s fantastic for them I think it’s great for some of our later teen children that we have,
but my wife’s idea of what the proper age to read this book is is 6 hours before the wedding so reasonable people can disagree.

This Week In Mormons:
[14:59] Yeah I wonder about this whole idea because you think we undersell how.
How much do younger tweens perhaps already know and how much we should get ahead of it and I liked you said of course it’s up to parents to know it’s kind of a novel concept I think it’s Latter Day Saints sometimes we want the church to do so much for us,
NY the big changes we’ve had this year in particular you know we’re home,
centered Church supported church for example puts more of the onus on parents to take the reins and raising their children and teaching them appropriate things which is great.
The for example I could I was in a ward once and we were they they pulled the youth.
On things I wanted to talk about during The Bishop’s discussion and a lot of them said they wanted to talk about navigating LGBT issues for example.
And I thought this was great we thought they want to talk about this and know how to how we deal with it is a church what which they should do with the experience those feelings themselves and how to go about it.
It seems like a good idea but then our Bishop sort of,
put the kibosh down because he thought it was just too complex to adult for the teenagers to be getting into and I disagreed but that wasn’t whatever that that was that you know I said my piece and that was that.
And I see a lot of parallels in the same vein of course we have to know where audience exactly but I wonder if we don’t undersell how much.
Young teenagers or early teens.

[16:23] Think they know at least a how much healthier would be forced to get out in front of it and just be frank with them about things rather than wait for society evils the world to fill in the gaps.

And It Was Very Good:
[16:34] Yeah and we’re worse off than we would ever have been in the past because we think about what we might have been ready for or have known from our own lives,
and it ain’t that world anymore.
They do know much much more they seen probably everything already it doesn’t take very much I am not,
I’m not an expert researcher in the earlier childhood development but I understand that it,
it’s quite young that people are usually first exposed to pornography like I want to say in like 8 to 10 range something in that in that range so imagine that they’re going to be getting that if you haven’t given them the wise.
Pathfinding that you was apparent that we as parents can provide then they’re just lost their they are they can be just lost in in something that’s confusing and put them at risk to be honest.

This Week In Mormons:
[17:29] Yeah and I can speak to that now that I’m reflecting on this and I think I saw pornography probably for the first time when I was.
Somewhere like 9 or 10 I have one memory actually have a kid who is clearly not my good but not a friend for me to have had like a dirty magazine or something and wanted us to see it,
and I was so young I saw some of these images and this and that it was it’s confusing and it doesn’t you know it it gives you this whole skewed View and I wasn’t coming at it like I’d had any,
a thoughtful talks of my parents about such things in a productive way or anything like that.
And I still can we can mess you up as a kid and at least it’s hopefully taught me as an adult you know how to be smarter about those sorts of things end,
and be more proactive with with helping our kids out and you of course like you said you got kids and all sorts of age ranges I’m sure you’ve navigated that.
Out with them already talked about you said you know you’re not a researcher so you are not a therapist of any variety professional is that correct.

And It Was Very Good:
[18:27] I’m a father of a father of seven.

This Week In Mormons:
[18:31] Enough said mic drop there it is.

And It Was Very Good:
[18:36] Yeah it’s oh my my work my professional work does allow me to do research,
I can read a lot of scientific papers without any particular problem or medical ones but I’m not a therapist I am not an expert in this field I’m a person who
learn how to read a lot and learn from it and do a survey and then learn from it so that those are the inputs that I had but I didn’t stop there I did
go because I didn’t want to get anything really terribly wrong this is a big responsibility
April my own kids of course but anybody reading it and so I
I reached out to three different sex therapist that are prominent and I’m Latter Day Saint Sex Therapy Natasha Helfer Parker who was fantastic
really help kind of go through Page by page for the book
at before it was published same thing from Rimmel mackelprang who is another one of those though he’s not as
as prominent on podcast in the same way that Natasha is and and Jennifer finlayson-fife who is these are all people that that
I work prominently in in the field together feedback because I was as you might expect concerned,
that I might get something wrong and really leave people hurt.

[19:55] Which bets that that isn’t the point I mean if I can help one person just one person say have,
I say a woman that might have orgasm when she wouldn’t have for 10 or 15 years then it’s all worth it if I got to help one one brother have,
at least some idea of how to have a non-traumatic sexual experience with his wife on their wedding night so that they aren’t
then crying and thinking the honeymoon is terrible maybe they aren’t even really shouldn’t even be married then that’s worth it that’s all it takes just one because those experiences are so very traumatic for people and as I heard from surveys,
it’s pretty common to have really traumatic sex and that’s it something solvable and so so.

This Week In Mormons:
[20:45] Yeah I’m reflecting on my life yes it’s it’s it’s it can be a mess if it’s fun,
so how long did you work on this that I mean get given it seems like you sort if you had an idea but you kind of started from from little and you work your way up something light how deep is Project go in terms of time.

And It Was Very Good:
[21:08] So
Hockey stick doesn’t even even give you the idea about. It was about 10 years ago I thought you know I should really do this my kids you know at this time my oldest one was maybe sixteen and I was like.
I should probably do this and make it a little bit easier for him and then for the others and so I sat down and I wrote.
One sentence and I chickened out for 9 years and then.
Last year I saw and I don’t know if you’ve seen it on there’s a Mister Rogers Fred Rogers movie a documentary about him.

This Week In Mormons:
[21:46] Do you mean the one that was was not even nominated for the Academy Award for best documentary and that was a shame and a scandal yes.

And It Was Very Good:
[21:55] It was just so wonderful and there’s a part in the film where he talks about.
Playing the piano and I can move from the key of C to the key of F and it’s really simple you can just change chords and from C to F it’s no big deal but there’s some key changes that are difficult that are hard transition and say
from C to F sharp that kind of tri-tone sound that sounds kind of nasty unless you’re playing Rock,
that that movement is hard you have to kind of move from Key Tuki Tuki Tuki to get to at key of F-sharp to see and he considered he said his life
to be the person who made some transitions easier.
And I can’t have that movie thinking I know what transition that’s hard I know what transition that’s really hard for a lot of my brothers and sisters and might be hard for my kids.
And I got to tell you. I just felt as though this was something that I should do not just that I wanted to do or that.
Might be able to do but that I ought to do and I did I did a little bit of looking around just to be sure that there wasn’t something that was quite like it already out there,
I didn’t see it and so on and if I missed it I’m sorry other other Latter Day Saints.
But I felt that it was it was a task that I could take and I oughta just take it and we’ve had the old Baeza light admonitions the last couple of years and okay.
I’ll go do it I can do that.

This Week In Mormons:
[23:24] Yeah I know I will back that up for the folks listening I think there is not as much like this any of us who have perused the marital help sections or prep sections that you know you’re at your local Deseret Book or what have you,
there’s some famous books within those among those ranks I don’t think they treated this way.
I know I V thumbs through those are the time of my life I work to do at Deseret Book after my mission when I was in college and was awesome as I want it over there and run around and it was fine but what I liked about your book is it fair.
I don’t want to say clinical to it wasn’t like it was cold but it was matter of fact and it was Frank about things and many could read that and assume that it’s.
You know it’s trying to break taboo or when have you but it’s a problem is Latter Day Saints that we think those things are taboo that we think you was talking about the word ejaculation and and.
Any other number of just what are medical terms for physiological reactions to stimuli are dirty things that we shouldn’t be saying.
And how dare we read such things they’ll fill our mind with with trash and filth nose on the case at all I mean yeah I read this and especially after having been married for a number of years,
because yeah it makes way more sense and it’s the kind of thing that would be unbelievably beneficial to read prior to jumping into bed as it were.
Am I.

And It Was Very Good:
[24:47] I sure hope so this I mean our bodies we have any religion believe our bodies are Godly they are patterned after our heavenly father and our heavenly mother and.
I assume that means sexuality and all its forms also and that’s what we are we are sexual beings we have been sexual beings from in our theology from before we were born,
and we’ve been sexual beings our whole life of course and it’s time to claim my Birthright to be honest what why would we let.
Anyting be held hostage from pornography or from somebody who wants to keep from us what should be our Birthright from God himself and that’s it sits there for our,
how are yous not just for procreation but for our our pleasure or Joy our bonding it’s for us.

This Week In Mormons:
[25:41] Did you do any research you just mention procreation did any of your research specifically asked people if they had worked under the assumption that sex should be primarily for procreation like to do any data on that particular I’m just curious.

And It Was Very Good:
[25:55] I didn’t have that but it was pretty easy to find.
The there have been multiple Prophet said it said Spencer Kimball for example that have said that there’s nothing that says that it’s for procreation only you go to the the you go to the priesthood manuals now and.
Stay by pretty clearly there’s nothing,
Barrett’s for bonding also so that one was one where our Doctrine actually includes that’s not that’s not an issue that we as even a society should be overcoming because.
Right there were told it over and over again and we’re also kind of commanded to do it it’s not as though were it we’re not.
We’re not just thinking that this is something that you do because you have no other choice we’re told to do it.
This is not just that maybe might but about Shout.

This Week In Mormons:
[26:51] Last time you mentioned keep President Kimball and I remember something I thought I’d be apocryphal or along those lines but I seem to recall him being the one who specified very clearly that it is not just for kids and you need to think.
If that’s what you have been thinking now I think a lot of.

And It Was Very Good:
[27:09] Yeah it’s a heated Hubie Brown did others have though to its it it’s really not been a controversial statement from prophets and in modern prophets to be honest it’s it is right there we are we are to do it also for joy.

This Week In Mormons:
[27:24] So one Greek Olympic theme I think in the book just that I got from reading it and all this could seem like common sense but I think books have to be written because we lack confidence said sometime.
In general it stored I think resources Embraces is this idea of.
Try to be open-minded and accommodating in the bedroom and think about what you want what your spouse wants to talk about things Express what you want be willing to stretch yourself a little bit for example.
Of course be respectful make sure everyone is on board with stuff I think you’re pretty open-minded in that capacity saying look this is your bedroom life like I’m not going to tell you.
Lucerne practice is wrong or not or what have you it is between you and your spouse and I believe that is the norm.
I’ve only ever heard this and never really seen stuff to back it up and I’m curious if your research can verify any of it.
But I was led to believe the church Once Upon a Time did have rules about things that were verboten in the bedroom sure you get married have sex and have that part of your life and experience those things but certain Act.
Etc we’re still not to be engaged and I’ve heard that my in my life but I’ve never verified it are you able to shed any light on that.

And It Was Very Good:
[28:38] Am I understanding is there are a couple that at different times were either,
expressly forbidden or where suggested against and that’s kind of going up and down there there’s even if you go back to the lake I think it’s in 1920s,
I want to say was ahead of Relief Society had an article out saying that someone who shamed their child for masturbating should be,
told that that’s that’s backwards,
so that’s that’s an example kind to the counter side was saying that masturbation was okay at least implied it was okay that should be shaming your your daughter for doing so in this case and then.
Yeah and then hang on one second.

[29:24] Haven’t got that out of my pod and then.
So that’s on one side of it and the other side what you probably have heard and I did hear it also and I was able to verify this just by doing some some quick research on this and that for about 6 month. In 1982,
there was a letter that came out from the first presidency suggesting that in Temple recommend interviews that,
if not the practice of oral sex was considered in pure natural and will be disqualifying for for going to the temple and then,
within six months another letter came out from the first presidency saying don’t ask,
you shouldn’t you shouldn’t go into the the details of a married couple sex life and that’s been where we essentially been since that point.

[30:25] One of the ways that I as a member of the church in what I tell my kids about something like this is that.
It’s easy to imagine that someone might.
If they pray about it or have their own strong beliefs in their own marriage that a particular act might not be a good idea for them.
That it might not and when you get that confirmation from the spirit like don’t do this thing it’s pretty easy to imagine you think everybody might be doing so I don’t know what that’s.
What happened but that’s one way to consider it that might be less antagonistic towards the idea that somebody just got it wrong.
I made it was right for them I don’t know but right now the direction is pray about it,
and probably the other thing that you’ll hear if you ask about specific acts you probably hear two things one or two things from,
Bishop’s maybe three one is that one where they still believe that it might be,
disallowed and just don’t know and that’s not what they’re supposed to do they’re not supposed to be asking those things are just supposed to be asking you if you follow the law of Chastity and and not Provence specific details so.
Pray about it in your fine is my what I tell my kids you might get ones that say not in the manual have a good day.

[31:51] Seems appropriate to me but again I’m not that’s that’s what I would tell my kids to do if they had questions like that and then you’ll probably get.
3rd Group after those two where they they themselves.
Worried that maybe it’s not right if they don’t know what to say,
and that does happen I think I know that because I’ve got I’ve gotten emails from from people that got in the free pdf of the book
I’ll just mention that here right now by the way if you want it free,
PDF of this book you don’t have to buy the whole book you know how to go and buy the the print copy or listen to the audio book you can just email me,
at Earthly parents at gmail.com and I’ll send you a copy I’ll just send you a PDF I want it red I think it helps and I hope it helps more.
But some of the people that have read that then we’re either Bishops or married to Bishops and they emailed me back and said this not allowed,
well here’s what happened I have you checked Amanda recently and then they either don’t email me back or or do and say I’ll look into this so.

This Week In Mormons:
[33:03] Tone email you back out how dare.

And It Was Very Good:
[33:04] That’s what I that’s what I’m hearing.
Well not not so much I don’t think I’m I would I would I would hate to think that I’m truly making a person.
Really worried that they’re doing the right thing but I can just say what I got might might Ortiz over my kids I can tell my kids.
Everything I see and the priesthood manual says that they’re not supposed to ask.
And that it’s between you and Lord so via wise a a wise servant and go and find out Doe B slothfulness this is your body this is your marriage.
You need to go to the Lord don’t rely on other people.
And are you also get and this is a Direction that’s in there so it’s something to be aware of it so that I do talk to my kids about is that you will find that.
You’ll get the response back and I think it’s a stated response back of saying well if it makes you feel uncomfortable maybe you ought not to do it.

[34:05] That’s good advice for some things but for sexuality is actually a little bit tricky and here’s why whenever we do something new we really haven’t learned it think riding a bike playing the piano.
Going out to dinner and dancing a dance that we’ve never learned and certainly sexuality it’s uncomfortable.
We feel awkward we feel confused we feel like maybe we don’t really want to do this.
And if that’s the feeling we’re lying on to say that’s the spirit telling us no.
We’re not going to do any new thing we’re not going to learn new things we’re going to mistake the feeling of learning.
For the feeling of the spirit telling us know so there are exercise some caution or at least tell my kids exercise some caution.
You can pray about it but you might not get an answer that makes you feel all that comfortable until you try something to three or four or five times.
It’s a probably sounded weird and Nikki to you when you were 7 years old and you heard about kissing or French kissing or anything that somebody does sex delay but then later you tried it and you liked it.
So that’s a lot of things it’s actually are like that.

This Week In Mormons:
[35:21] It’s like Daniel Tiger says you got to try new things.
Because they might go in his case it’s for food because they might taste good Daniel Tiger is teaching our kids at when they’re 3 years old everybody Daniel Tiger so just carry that over into your sex life and you’ll be fine.

And It Was Very Good:
[35:38] Indeed and it’s not like we’re bringing a third-party into bed or something that is so obviously sinful and break the law of Chastity if that were so we’re doing something that we can repent from and maybe we don’t like it.
But we are asked to be you know and like little children in certain ways and what do children do they ask a lot of why to ask a lot of Y and they try to learn new things.
The learning machines.

This Week In Mormons:
[36:06] That’s interesting
when you were doing your research the book covers are a few areas that I enjoyed, the first half sucks a lot about essentially how to stimulate and please your spouse
what does very frankly which I think is super useful and so of course it talk about women are complex creatures I love the the physiological detail you went into on this on the way,
women sexual response and how this works of course cuz his men we are program very differently you know there’s a there’s a stiff breeze and we’re ready to go
not to be too crude but you know how it is still at different for us you even said in the book essentially meant can if I can be so bold I like the I’m paraphrasing a bit but then it’s you said basically a man can rub his penis even like a woman armpit
and that’ll do it for him to to be placed and I thought that I don’t have it but I thought that was that was,
it was funny to me because I’m anyways it’s true and the women are so much more complicated so I want to ask you this though based on your research,
do you see that these are apples and oranges but do you feel that,
women perhaps there many women especially who feel guilt going into their wedding nights dry you know it all even though it’s totally or do you know you feel like some of your dirty broke the rules whatever might be women can be uptight and have for the guilt we talked a lot about you talk a lot about that,
and men don’t quite know how to please the lady and haven’t done any research.

[37:36] Of those to which do you think is the most prevalent or problematic going into a new sexual relationship.

And It Was Very Good:
[37:45] I don’t know which one’s more prevalent I think that the problematic one is is that the one where the man doesn’t really know what to do at all and that that’s problematic because.
That woman Also may not know what to do in our culture the number of men that have masturbated before marriage is very high like
94% something like that the number of women is more around 78% and probably lower within our culture so I’ve never seen a really good problems number for that and so
the chance that a woman knows in our culture on the wedding night how to have a pleasurable sexual experience for her is quite low,
but it for a man it’s quite high and then at the same time we go into a honeymoon night a wedding night.
Essentially doing exactly what the man might want,
and what he’s ready for especially if he has has has masturbated before then he he knows what what works for him,
he’s ready for the next step and the next step for a man is likely going to be intercourse,
and that’s just wrong wrong wrong for a woman who may not even know how to feel pleasure may not know her own Anatomy at all which is something that I certainly heard within the DNA idea surveys that I.

This Week In Mormons:
[39:06] Oh yeah there you you have some you have some pull quotes that are just amazing like jaw-dropping from women saying like a little they knew about themselves but yeah continue.

And It Was Very Good:
[39:14] Oh yeah yeah and so they don’t know those things and then we get into intercourse which I think that even.

[39:24] I would say that even I is before I had done this last round of research didn’t really appreciate how much that intercourse is a male Centric motor sexuality.
If the expectation is that it’s going to be pleasurable with intercourse to the point of orgasm with a woman it’s it’s just relatively rare.
Maybe one out of six women when they really know what they’re doing,
1 out of 6 have just the right Anatomy so it works they have a short distance between the clitoris and the urethra and if you have a short enough distance there then your physiology is set up or your home or month or set up enough so that it’s relatively easy.
The other 5/6 know they they don’t they may not feel much if you feel the inside of your.
Inside of your cheek that’s about the same kind of skin as a as a vagina and it also feel about as much as a vagina might feel,
a vagina itself doesn’t feel very much it what gets felt is when everything is kind of puppy and Vaso that’s about to dilated there’s like a lot of blood there and the clitoris gets engaged,
because the clitoris itself is quite large much larger than most people expect it’s about the size of a penis but it’s all internal.
And internal only a little tip pokes out but one that’s got to kind of like alternate elections Voltron of blood and locking all together before it even to really have vaginal stimulation too much and there’s a really good reason for that.

[40:53] With there’s a very dangerous thing that might happen to all the pleasure nerves that exists for a woman and that very dangerous thing is getting birth,
and those pleasure nerves are routed away from that birth canal there there you know it’s at the bypass around it basically so,
if you are the yes there are some women that can have orgasm through intercourse alone but maybe half never.
Ever have orgasim during intercourse,
and then the other 25% on each side of those that the other the other two as a 25% 25% about every time that they usually they like additional stimulation
or find it easier and then 25% of the time 25% of women some of the time,
and that idea of additional stimulation is also really important because if you don’t know that.
Then you are giving a woman something that might feel like sex without a penis which is what it would be like to us that it’s possible.

[41:54] But it probably isn’t very fun and that’s what it’s like having sexual encounters for most women without clitoral stimulation,
it’s like sex for a man without a penis and if you don’t know that then well you just in the wrong spot you’re not you’re not doing some of that might be pleasurable,
I mean I got an email yesterday from a wife who asked for the book and said for two years,
she isn’t getting her man needs met and been married for two years and another person that I’ve interacted with 16 years I mean this is just.
That’s hard and it’s it’s it’s quite solvable that that’s where I see the biggest.
The biggest hurdle that but that isn’t everybody obviously because he will do read.
And people do learn about this sometimes so of course I get there some a many many two and they maybe think that this is no big deal it’s just saying that goes around the community if if your sex life is good as maybe 10% of your
your focus in your marriage if it’s bad it’s like 90% of the focus in your marriage am I,
it right might not even make the marriage go into the Rocks so really getting getting that right is is really helpful,
the other one that you had mentioned was this feeling that maybe it’s not you you can’t be sexual I think that is really common but.

[43:19] People just by experience tend to get over that I I just don’t it doesn’t seem to be quite the barrier,
long term but for some it is for some it certainly is and we we put that on women.
In part I think through things like modesty night,
and implying that through a lot of things that we do as a culture imply that the male sexuality is guaranteed and dangerous.
And unregulated and you women regulate the male sexuality which is an awful lot of responsibility.

This Week In Mormons:
[43:55] You are becoming pornography lest we forget that quote yes.

And It Was Very Good:
[44:00] Yeah and it’s and it’s it it’s that’s that’s so much responsibility how could you possibly address that without,
becoming a sexual yourself and that’s your your your boxing we are boxing our daughters in a place where sexuality,
they can’t even afford it for themselves they’re worried about someone else’s and not just even themselves and that that has,
these consequences of their finding a difficult than to be sexual and and fully sexual marriage and,
also they’re at risk for it seems for for sexual assault because if it happens wasn’t it their fault,
and you can think that if your Elizabeth Smart was an example of somebody who felt that it was her fault that she was raped and in part,
and I’m at as an example and it’s it’s just so much pressure it may also and does also at times have women look for somebody who feels very safe,
not so handsy somebody who makes him feel comfortable and not really sexual and then when they find themselves in marriage there’s no spark there.
And that’s.
That’s Tuff that’s not a situation I want for my kids and it’s not in the book but it’s something that I’ve been thinking about actually since writing the book is what I tell my kids about what use their sexuality is now.

[45:26] Not in the future we all know that it has a purpose in the future what’s the Hughes right now and a couple things come to mind.
It it’s there to make you really attracted to the opposite sex that you’re forced out of your shell.

[45:41] You’re forced to go that you’re if you are a Wallflower and I had a lot of off our shirts for kids then
your you can’t be that your sexuality forces you out and that’s great that’s a really important purpose and another one is to crack the box of seeing what your sexuality likes so that you know whether or not the magnet even a line.
If you don’t have that and don’t do those things and you aren’t really going to be using your sexuality wisely.
And it’s hard to use their sexuality wisely if it’s something that we just didn’t I.
And wow I mean that’s that’s scary to think of somebody using their sexuality when there are kids in any way shape or form its.
It feels probably more comfortable to tell them to deny their sexuality but that’s that’s like building a very tall wall.
Everybody’s undermining it or just jumping over the outside and drones are coming and it just it makes no sense not in this world.

This Week In Mormons:
[46:46] I’m thinking about the wall analogy wondering what would be it would be more appropriate though and it’s so true I mean it’s like are those the biggest issue is maybe for a minute if I did ask you what’s the biggest shoe for men
and women as Latter Day Saints going into becoming sexually active do you think we got a hit on it right there or is there anything else you’d want to.
Get my message.

And It Was Very Good:
[47:10] Those are big ones I mean there are certain gaps that we all seem too or at least many of us seem to have that when those are those are some big ones because.
The male sexuality is fairly Advanced that by the time they get into marriage because people have masturbated if they’re males usually and they are ready for the next step,
and females not so much,
and when you and there’s the information of lack of information because females may not know their own body,
men may not know the female body and they may not know what to do if you don’t know that you need to give non genital stimulation for about 20 minutes to a woman before she’s even really ready to have her genitals touched while you going to do something so painful,
and if you think that,
you that say something like vaginal wetness is a sign that it’s time to to go straight to intercourse then you’re going to do something that’s not fun,
there you need to know that takes another 20 minutes a day of drug genital stimulation ideally on the clitoris for that to be possible like these things just these these things are the owner’s manual and the reason also that it’s.
More challenging to think from the woman’s side is not just at this experience imbalance but also because it’s it’s more physiologically difficult.

[48:24] It’s just more physiologically difficult to for a woman to get to the point that you can experience an orgasm so there’s it’s it’s more practice for men it’s,
generally automatic pretty easy and you mentioned earlier about it kind of being you could you could you could rub anywhere against a wife and and have something that might be a pleasurable sexual experience indeed one that and an orgasm for a man that’s,
Memphis pretty accurate but not so much for women the physiologies more challenging,
and the mental state that’s required made feel very alien that getting a.

[49:02] The sexuality that’s required and the Embrace of sexuality this required for a female’s is there’s a lot there
you may have to have a pretty intense fantasy or sexual scene that you
really focus on a romantic ideas that you’re really thinking very hard about if your woman to be able to get yourself to a position while I mean right you got to eat if you don’t do those things then then orgasm may never happen,
I mean you may never experienced it and so you have to be willing to embrace and accept those those feelings and that’s not something that we’re taught.
And it has to be learned that the other thing is that while it’s pretty automatic for a man.
It’s not automatic necessarily at all for women it’s a learned experience it’s like learning to whistle once you know the nap if your own body to whistle you whistle.
But if you don’t know that Knack you gotta learn it and that’s not something that most people are culturally ready for you think,
it’s all natural it’ll happen naturally that’s like wanting to dance the salsa and whistle naturally when you’ve never done either it just doesn’t work that way.

This Week In Mormons:
[50:12] That’s true I don’t know why this popped in my head but I’m this is just curious for your hot Tech all right if you have.
A sexual dream about someone other than your spouse should you feel guilty about it should you even tell your spouse about it be.

And It Was Very Good:
[50:34] So here I would I would be talking to a spouse first and seeing and trying to understand what is acceptable or wanted in those situations and praying about it this is not something where there’s a clear-cut answer.
I think that the answer that most sex researchers and experts in the field give is.
Don’t worry about it it’s just whatever you think about it’s not a big deal especially a dream where you have no control over that that’s just the way it happens that’s that’s not nothing that is is even conscious but they would extend past that and do a test and pass out into saying your fantasies are your own
and the most common fantasies are fantasies about having sex with somebody who’s not your spouse so.
That’s at least something that’s really common does really common mean okay that that’s between you,
and God and that’s what I would tell my kids like this is something that you really do want to work out it’s not an obvious answer especially because it can feel disloyal or it could feel quite hurtful and threatening to a spouse.
Feeling of hurtful and threatening that’s that’s.
Pretty common you feel jealous you don’t want someone else to have the attention of a spouse so that’s one reason you might want not want to do it,
on the other hand what if that’s required for your sexuality to engage and so that you are able to be sexual with your spouse and share your sexuality with a spouse.
That isn’t that a good thing.

This Week In Mormons:
[52:03] It is a good thing that’s that’s so you bring up a good point though if that is what somebody needs to engage in sexuality though but are you not especially if you’re thinking about things actively in order to be sexual with your spouse
I mean are you committing adultery in your heart in order to be sexual with your spouse in that case.

And It Was Very Good:
[52:21] I’m going to take a quick diversion to the adultery in your heart that I think that comes from a very particular verse where that word,
that kind of lust after someone in your heart is the same as possess or I don’t the same as you shouldn’t covet other things.
Covet thy neighbor’s wife is like cutting their their auxier there or their their goods so there’s is a little bit of that that might be in there it may not in fact refer to sexual thoughts about other I don’t know,
but just I’m putting that out there so that there’s not a very strong scriptural reference against that I’ll be honest I think that it would be disloyal to my wife so I try not to do such a thing,
but there are but I don’t know that I am not just,
like adding a rule like I shouldn’t eat chocolate because I shouldn’t drink tea and therefore I shouldn’t have any caffeine I mean that’s it maybe it’s one of those and I don’t really know the answer Jeff on something like that so that’s one where.

[53:20] It would be probably wise to start praying about something like that and see what God actually thinks because why be hurtful.
And it’s not like it should be a mystery about whether or not we’re doing something right or wrong we got says ask so ask and see if you can find an answer for something like that I’m kind of curious of what the answer might be I can think of other ones where.
The fantasies that some women need an unsung women in this case because women and Fantasies and orgasm are things that couldn’t go together like those those.
Tend to be required as opposed to a man who may not need that and can more easily be in the moment not always but that that’s something that can be that can be enough,
I’m more often for men but for a woman that the fantasies that they need might sometimes be pretty disturbing.
And it’s nothing that they’ve chosen necessarily it’s just what their sexuality which gets laid down very early your erotic template of what is.
Interesting erotic lie to you and some of its lay down you know before well before puberty quite quite young and.

[54:28] What’s the part of the work that say a sex therapist might do with someone who’s disturbed by a fantasy say of compelled sex or something like that,
might be to work backwards and say what what is it that makes you feel this way maybe it’s maybe it’s you were once in a place where you were,
you felt so wrong about being sexual.
And you were told it was so bad that you can’t allow yourself to feel sexual unless you’re forced feel sexual,
and so this is a pretty common fantasy seeing that that women have that especially ones that are raised by more of a repressor you can work backwards or some kind of repression involved with this where they want to be sexual but I don’t know how,
and I can’t accept and themselves that it’s not just a bad thing to do and so a fantasy of being forced say.
A police officer has has a caught you and you have to perform sexually would you get out of a ticket or something like that or something even more disturbing those things can have a real value.
To someone who otherwise can’t access your sexuality and if those fantasies are just too disturbing,
then you can work with a sex therapist to try to figure out how to find something that gives you what you need like understanding the cause.

[55:51] What’s the underlying thing that’s making you feel this way we can kind of sap the the fantasy of its disturbing nature and then then move on to something that might be more acceptable to you but if it doesn’t disturb you then.
We’re here to share our sexuality with our spouse it doesn’t have to be in our mind anything like what we’re currently doing if that’s what we.
That’s what we want I’ll be honest I feel,
wonderful when I’m integrating my my inner mind and innermost thoughts with what I’m doing at the moment and it makes me feel like I’m an integrated person not a different person kind of behind closed doors or something like that I don’t know if that’s the answer for everybody,
and I I I don’t think I have a quite the same no I don’t have a history of sexual abuse that might in some way have
change what my erotic template particularly and in a way that I find disturbing I don’t have I don’t have.

[56:48] Very unusual sexual thoughts that are required to be able to access my roddis isn’t that so it’s not it’s not something that I have to deal with and I have Just Disagree to compassion for people that.
Like something else something that might feel unusual or even wrong but that’s what your sexuality wants learned that gift it it was given to you learn what it is.
Learn what it likes give it what it wants as long as it’s not you know
involving a third person man and pray about it if it if it really bothers you maybe go to a sex therapist and see if you can work your way through to something that’s a little bit more acceptable but
in general these things are it’s it’s how it is it’s what’s intended in in many ways is is to find the thing that that works for you.
And engage that and share that,
share that you may not have to share your innermost innermost thoughts but the share the sexual experience with your husband or with your with your wife that. Is what we are that’s what we ought to do that’s what we are told to do that’s our,
that’s our goal that’s the gift that we have.

This Week In Mormons:
[57:52] Cobra command it to do all right just parting thoughts we that we talked about a lot of good stuff today.
Is there anything else that you think is worth expressing that we haven’t hit on that you think it is pertinent to one gender or the other two couples it together anything we haven’t hit on do you want to get out.

And It Was Very Good:
[58:10] So there a couple things that are really useful to know and the most common sexual ailments that people complain about when they go to see a therapist finally if they if they really are worried are premature ejaculation for men.
And lack of orgasm for women those are number one number one and those two things are so easily fixed.
They are almost guaranteed to be fixed by some behavioral therapy it’s the thing that bothers us the most.
But it’s so fixable and I’ll get very quickly with those two things are for men that have premature ejaculation first of all if it doesn’t happen within one minute.
It’s not premature ejaculation if it happens in a minute and a half or two minutes there’s a name for that it’s called normal you are normal there’s nothing wrong with you.
You don’t have to go get treatment for anything yeah you may like to extend the amount of time that you have sex with.
It’s normal totally normal but if it is really fast and you just can’t control it there are very easy techniques once called start-stop when called Squeeze where you where you have a little bit of sex or a little bit of stimulation and then stop.

[59:26] And eventually you learn by starting and stopping how to control your own sense of inevitability and then it doesn’t control you and your anxiety goes down it becomes easier and this this takes months of work,
and it’s easier when you work with a sex therapist to do it but it’s doable and is very high success rates and then for women if you haven’t been able to learn the trick of your orgasm it is learnable is a learnable thing.

[59:52] D-Share women who when they goat with a therapist,
to have directed still self-stimulation this is something that might feel taboo but you are going to be blessed in your marriage
if you are if you do it where you are directed to touch yourself,
person on General Lee and see what it what feels good to you and then later genitally to see what feels good for you there and then ideally use a vibrator because if I braid her those things work,
so you use that for an hour,
and that’s what you will likely be recommended if you go see a sex therapist and the success rate for that from no orgasm to orgasm Santa month,
is about 95% it just works.

[1:00:35] Unless you have something medically wrong with you or something much more serious wrong with your your psyche so the things that.
Curtis the most and the meanings that we have in a tribute to these things and feel so terrible about.
And worried that we may be married the wrong person how did I do this what a mistake I made all of those things that I’m broken and not broken it just these things are so simple to cure so simple,
and just get the help you need and even read about them in the book see if they work for you because I described them it’s not that hard,
it’s your going to be told what to do at home and you could do it.
But if that doesn’t work or if you just want to go and get some professional help cuz you may feel like you need a little bit more permission than you
get from reading a book about something then go talk to a professional and they’ll help you they will help you this is it it’s solvable and I lost like that.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:01:33] It’s solvable people anyway you could everything that they had I thought this was a great open-minded book I think that it helps you realize that sexuality something to be embraced to be cherished and to be explored and to not feel guilt.
From said exploration and work with your spouse on that sort of thing.
EP as we’ve chosen to call you I really appreciate appreciate you taking some time to talk with me today about all this it’s been very enlightening and educational.

And It Was Very Good:
[1:02:03] Thanks Jeff do you mind if I give away where people can get the book One More.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:02:06] I was about to do the plug myself. To do a better than me so yeah go ahead hit.

And It Was Very Good:
[1:02:11] If you want the book I’ll tell you how to get it for free in a second but if you just like to have physical copies of the book you can get it from Amazon or much cheaper from Barnes & Noble.
Or you can go to Audible and listen to download a copy if that’s what you that’s what you prefer to listen to an audiobook.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:02:27] Oh do you do do you narrate do you narrate audiobook is it you.

And It Was Very Good:
[1:02:31] I do not write the audio.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:02:32] Oh yes excellent.

And It Was Very Good:
[1:02:35] If you don’t like my voice but if you do you’ll hear 3 hours of me.
The book itself if you want if you want a free copy by PDF an electronic copy that you can share with anyone and please share just email me,
Earthly parents at gmail.com and I will send it to you.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:03:03] And he’s he’s true to his word Folk.
He sent me a PDF and that’s how I read it well I converted it to Kindle format and then it got all messed up in formatting but I still got the gist I read the whole thing at work.
This messed up formatting but it was fine if you want to read this and like you said.
Yeah dude you have a three hour audiobook pens on your reading speed with the whole book is about 170 Pages or so on the PDF I think roughly.
So it is not something it’s going to take you forever to get through and it’s you get a lot per page of useful information so I think it’s time you talking to us.

And It Was Very Good:
[1:03:45] Thank you Jeff it’s my pleasure and good luck.

This Week In Mormons:
[1:03:48] Well that was very educational,
and truly the book is worth your while I hope it was good for all of you it was good for me please visit us at this week in Mormons. Com shoot us an email contact at this week in Mormons. Calm and follow us on social media on Facebook Twitter etc etc,
that would be good my two big please this week if you’ve not written a review on iTunes please go to iTunes and right said review,
give us five stars hook us up that would be so cool I know how many are there right now I want to see at least 10 more reviews up there,
from this episode we haven’t done it now is the time please please please please please and also please please please please please if you want to support us on patreon patreon
dot-com this weekend Mormon you can pledge like a buck a month or something along those lines and all that doesn’t just help us pay our bills,
truly that’s what it is it is not tax-deductible as far as I know.
There’s no financial gain there’s a spiritual enlightenment to be yours once again thanks to my wonderful guest anonymous.
I think you offer tune again can’t do it without you so I appreciate it and I will talk to you next week should get back to the news then until then be well be holy and be happy.

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