Devin Thorpe is real. His largess exceeds all things. A giant of men.

That was a haiku.

Speaking of giants among men, renowned thinker, both spiritual and physical, Clayton Christensen, has passed away at age 67. Devin didn’t always love some of Christensen’s counsel, but his impact has been felt far and wide across peoples and industries.

So, there’s going to be a Book of Mormon-focused statue park somewhere in the Salt Lake City area. This is outstanding, absolutely outstanding. It appears to embrace American exceptionalism at its finest.

Let’s talk about LGBT and LGBT-adjacent issues. Brigham Young University has capitulated and will allow same-sex couples to complete in an upcoming national championship hosted by the university. Also in Utah, the state has formally banned conversion therapy after hemming and hawing for quite some time.

Hey! So great temple news this week. First off, the Durban South Africa Temple open house is brief, but underway. Next, crews working at the St. George Utah Temple, which is undergoing a long-term renovation, have removed a massive addition put on in the 1970s in one of the first major moves of the project. Lastly, we now have groundbreaking dates for temples in Richmond, Virginia; Layton, Utah; and the second temple in Metro Manila, Philippines.

Oh, and not lastly. Here are some cool photos of the Salt Lake Temple, which is also closed for its renovation.

“Come, Follow Me” is not a home run for everyone. First of all, last week, the Sisters discussed the racist printing error for which the Church apologized. Now, Ben Spackman has an excellent piece on inerrancy, or Latter-day Saints’ refusal to acknowledge that anything put forth by the Church could have been done in error… even when an apostle is the one admitting the error. Well worth a read.

Now, Jana Riess, ever the polemicist, calls “Come, Follow Me” a “dumpster fire” before walking it back. But she speaks to a bigger issue in that the new curriculum format isn’t particularly robust for many. Now, she argues this while failing to recognize that a global curriculum is going to be a bit more general than one might hope. After all, Sunday school is not an Institute course or a for-credit religion class elsewhere. It’s Sunday school, taught by a volunteer.

That doesn’t mean that “Come, Follow Me” is above criticism — it certainly has its shortcomings — but it’s also important to take in the appropriate context. Thankfully, Jana spends a good amount of time providing recommended study companions for the Book of Mormon, which is the real value in her work.

Back to race in the manuals, a new op-ed argues that the dark “skin” of the Lamanites should actually have been translated as “skins” or the animal skins they would wear. Interesting.

Hey, so, Elder Quentin L. Cook was hanging with the Philippines’ ruthless populist president. Remember, the Church is in the business of spreading the gospel, not stimulating democratic revolutions or related movements.

Transcript

Geoff Openshaw:
[0:00] Hey folks this week and Mormons here Jeff in the house that’s me I’m with Devin what’s up Devin.

Devin Thorpe:
[0:05] It’s Monday night family home evening time and I’m recording a podcast with you I’m thrilled.

Geoff Openshaw:
[0:11] Oh my gosh I’m see I can get away with things I’m East Coast so like I’m post all of that at this point but I’m probably I’m preventing you from advancing spiritually I’m sorry.

Devin Thorpe:
[0:19] No I it’s okay.

Geoff Openshaw:
[0:22] Okay,
okay I don’t want to cause problems folks thank you for taking the time to tune it’s nice to have you with us this weekend be back in the saddle we had some sisters last week and we always love their show and now here we are you know.
Winding down January this week is a big week we don’t have any big celebration planned per se but this is officially the 10th anniversary of the podcast this week Devin and Devin congratulations Devin you’re in the hot seat.

Devin Thorpe:
[0:49] Well it’s an honor to be here I’m thrilled to celebrate it with you I’ve done I’ve been your co-host now off and on for what six months five months.

Geoff Openshaw:
[0:59] No no no we’re over a year now in this.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:01] Is it over here I love doing it I love doing it and I have a lot of fun doing this.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:09] We’re glad to have you here once again I want to thank you for your contribution to our little Christmas Stories episode we did about a month ago I thought that turned out quite well it was very nice to hear everybody stuff so that.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:18] It was good I hope I didn’t detract Too Much from the spirit of.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:23] I don’t see how you would do that you are one of the thoughtful.
Um anyway since we last spoke you had you’ve been sunsetting your long-running podcast so what’s going on now.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:37] That was a really difficult challenging experience in fact if you listen to the last episode which I recorded months ago months and months ago I kind of lose it a little bit as I pondered.
The end of the show but I had Nick Kristof New York Times.
Columnist and best-selling author on the show to talk about social issues for the last time and it was I thought it was a great episode we talked about a bunch of cool stuff.
Including one of my favorite Nick Kristof themes which is sort of calling liberals on their crap.
Even though he and I both are liberals.

Geoff Openshaw:
[2:18] It’s like David Brooks calling conservatives on their crap.

Devin Thorpe:
[2:21] Yeah yeah exactly sometimes you got to do that so I thought it was a great great episode we so we’ve kind of put that to bed I’m continuing to write for Forbes so that keeps me busy.
But yeah I’m thinking about what the future holds and still working through that.

Geoff Openshaw:
[2:39] Okay we hope good things don’t go back to Investment Banking man don’t do.

Devin Thorpe:
[2:44] It won’t happen.

Geoff Openshaw:
[2:45] Okay you should work that Bill Gates connection move to Seattle could work at the Gates Foundation.

Devin Thorpe:
[2:51] Boy I would love to work for the Gates Foundation.

Geoff Openshaw:
[2:53] As would I the benefits are insane.
Yeah oh oh yes oh yes but they can hire the cream of the crop but it’s you get like it’s like a year of paid paternity leave to say nothing of the actual.

Devin Thorpe:
[3:06] I have to get pregnant then.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:07] Yes you do we will watch the movie Junior together and we will celebrate how we’ll get to this anyway yeah so stuff is going to get over here in DC I might finally be winding down my basement renovation which has been the nightmare of the past quarter.

Devin Thorpe:
[3:21] Yeah usually we do this without the cameras on tonight we have the cameras on so I can see the basement remodel and appreciate how much work it is.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:34] Yeah this isn’t even the main the main part yeah this is just been yeah it’s a mess my.

Devin Thorpe:
[3:39] It’s a lot of work.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:40] My kids are not have a basement to play in for a year ever since this all got going anyways life is chugging along though and things are great I’m actually changing jobs those right now I’m in a low light have my last day at my job on Friday.

Devin Thorpe:
[3:51] Congratulations what’s the new job.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:54] So I’ve been working at the state department for a while and now I’m going to go be taking a job at US Aid so I’m.

Devin Thorpe:
[4:00] Oh

Geoff Openshaw:
[4:01] Hanging out with my Aid and development folks it’s going to be good coming back home I haven’t worked in the industry.

Devin Thorpe:
[4:04] Oh my gosh I think I need to come work for you Jeff let’s let’s talk about that.

Geoff Openshaw:
[4:09] Okay so it should be good I’m mixed yeah I had much earlier in my career I did some work with you I said– more on the side like in the supporting role so it’s kind of fun to come back to somewhere where I spent the earlier days in my.

Devin Thorpe:
[4:20] Yeah I love the work they’re doing.

Geoff Openshaw:
[4:23] Now we’ll see how it goes we’ll see how it goes thanks to my contractor we didn’t go on any fun trip while I have a week off you know with nothing to do nope to stay in here trying to get it done thanks contractor I won’t name you on here for the sake of.
Libel or something like that but for goodness sakes man okay anyway well everybody it’s been a very
busy week in Latter-day Saint news and I love seeing the way the news kind of curates itself during this time because devan’s been slotted here for this week for a couple of weeks or so you know what since we’ve scheduled doing that’s kind of how we usually do it.

[4:55] But in that time I feel like so many of the stories that have popped up this week are very relevant and the type that are of Interest.
To mr. Devon so I always think it’s great the way this seems to pan out and although all the cool things that we can do together I’m going to lead off this week with what is one of my.
More beloved stories,
Meridian good old Meridian magazine bless the Proctors wonderful people are talking about the proposal to develop an I quote unprecedented Sculpture Park to celebrate.

[5:26] The Book of Mormon now what this means now I believe these are like proof-of-concept they’re smaller statues right now and the idea is I believe to make full size
statues sculpture parks of various scenes from The Book of Mormon some of them are what you would see you know Christ blessing the children that’s cool nothing wrong with that some of them show people looking Layman Knight to,
in the Book of Mormon stories song since swinging a knife.
Well I really like the title of Liberty one that’s when it goes full John McNaughton on me that’s the one that I’m there is nothing better than American exceptionalism,
and a park at that’s a proposed Park in Salt Lake City this has Captain Moroni with the his title of Liberty and then the title of Liberty itself dissolves and transforms into an American flag with then George Washington kneeling behind him.
And then other people in war it is like you don’t need the Emoji Memorial when you have this this is better also George Washington is holding a baby.
Also interesting so I this is still in proposal development stages but I believe it is happening I mean they have the they have the land I believe it’s you probably know exactly where it would go better right Devin some.

Devin Thorpe:
[6:43] I don’t know where it’s going I didn’t pick up on that detail and map it but,
yeah I mean this is you know art is in the eye of the beholder right and so this will be extraordinarily popular here in Utah people love this in fact the
the title of liberty statue one of the.
Models versions of this that he made that was about 4 feet tall.
Our rotary District purchased and gave to Jon Huntsman as a tribute just a few months before he died.
And you know he was emotional about it and we were emotional about giving you to embed,
yeah I think I think you look at this and it is not so much a shrine to this particular piece to the Book of Mormon as it’s a monument to American exceptionalism and,
and the Mormon.
Cultural interpretations of doctrine that suggests that and and so for some people that’s incredibly moving I think for other people it will be genuinely genuinely.

Geoff Openshaw:
[7:55] Yeah it’s gonna.

Devin Thorpe:
[7:57] I mean really I mean if your Nigerian Refugee who’s being turned away by America.
Right now how exceptional do you think America is.
If you’re occurred in Iraq having our Syria having been abandoned by,
the American soldiers who for a decade at protected you all right how are you feeling about American exceptionalism today so I think it’s there’s an eye of the beholder thing going on there the pieces themselves are beautiful they’re spectacular.
I drew a little parallel to a let much let you know not a very well-known little similar effort.
But nearly a century ago a U-turn created a little Sculpture Garden,
in Salt Lake and I happened to attend church in the backyard of this sculpture garden so I’ve walked through it it’s called gilgal Gardens.
And it’s got some of the same kind of stuff right some of it you look at it you just say it’s.
But some people view it as a genuinely Sacred Space so you know again art is in the eye of the beholder and.
It’ll be wonderful I think for a lot of people they’ll love love the new Sculpture Park.

Geoff Openshaw:
[9:17] Be curious and it does say in the article that they cannot disclose its location this implies that Meridian magazine knows where it will be but they are prohibited from saying so which is very interesting to me because I would assume at this point if anything is in planning or breaking ground stages,
permits must have been filed somewhere so sleuth EU Ton’s find out unless this is literally going to be in somebody’s backyard and it’ll be a,
paper entry kind of thing also of note is the article I joked about Iwo Jima just because it looked like Iwo Jima but the article actually goes out of its way to say.
The title of Liberty is hoisted on a pole held in place by soldiers
just as they did at Iwo Jima so first I thought it was just kind of an obvious allusion but they’re actually aping Iwo Jima which I personally find defensive even if the title of Liberty is important and it’s a good part of scripture but now we’re getting we’re going to get,
jingoistic here before we know it okay so I don’t love that one as much but like you said I have the beholder and if this gets propped up.
I totally would go I’d want to check this out even though I think the best sculpture parks are like old Soviet sculpture Parks but this could be.
Fine if anyone ever goes to Budapest Heroes Park not 0 square what’s that called there’s a park in Budapest has a bunch of old Soviet statues and it’s worth checking out anyway.

Devin Thorpe:
[10:35] Yeah well you know this this guy’s got game he’s actually brilliant sculpt.

Geoff Openshaw:
[10:40] Yeah does good work.

Devin Thorpe:
[10:43] Okay let’s see here let’s see if I’ve got anything I can bring to the table here let’s talk a little bit about Clayton Christensen before that gets away from us it you know Clayton Christensen truly truly truly one of the Great.
Mormons of you know the last hundred years just an incredible human being.
I think he served as an area seventy but he was of course you know just to remind you he was a byr a Harvard professor.
And he is the author of a book that I didn’t like.

[11:22] Much care for but that is absolutely one of the you know Bibles of business these days called the innovators dilemma.
I admired Clayton despite the fact that I thought that book didn’t bring much to the table and everybody I mean everyone in the world is smarter than I am and they all agree that book is you know like.
All that and a bag of chips I didn’t think so but he wrote a book that I thought was profound just 3 or 4 years ago called how will you measure your life.
And that is you know that is so much more important so much more profound,
and everyone should read it but what I really admired about Clayton Christensen.
Was when he was working full-time as a professor at Harvard and doing you know Consulting and all this stuff on the side clearly one of the busiest guys in the world he
and his wife would set a goal to introduce someone to the missionaries every quarter.
And you know you think about that most of us haven’t done that in a long time and he and his wife would do it every quarter and so he had some amazing stories of how he would do that.

[12:37] And you know
so many of us make excuses all the time about why we can’t do that and yet he was doing all the time it really was an inspiring example to me I haven’t done emulated it
I know I should I have no excuse but I admire him for his you know living out his testimony in that powerful way.

Geoff Openshaw:
[13:02] Yeah he’ll be missed and obviously he’s been hugely influential I mean you know all the way from people like Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos down through the startup Community has been an enormous figure I don’t think they released the actual cause of death officially but I believe he’d been struggling with cancer and.

Devin Thorpe:
[13:16] Yeah yeah he died of leukemia.

Geoff Openshaw:
[13:19] Zone especially leukemia that’s terrible.

Devin Thorpe:
[13:20] I think so yeah.

Geoff Openshaw:
[13:22] He passed away in an unrelated of course as a southern Californian you know Kobe Bryant randomly dying yesterday that was not Latter Day Saint news.

Devin Thorpe:
[13:32] Yeah I tried to find his connection to Mormons in a part from playing the Utah Jazz I couldn’t find any connections.

Geoff Openshaw:
[13:40] I didn’t see much of anything either but that’s also been quite the thing to absorb you know.

Devin Thorpe:
[13:45] Mmm.
You know there is a Mormon aspect there that I think Bears some discussion and I don’t mean any disrespect to him to bring up to dredge up the past but you’ll recall he was accused of rape in 2003.
What I did not appreciate until my wife pointed it out to him is not only did he stay with his wife then he is still with his wife.
And they managed to keep that marriage together and now for over 20 years which is a remarkable thing.
Even absent that kind of accusation and it really got me thinking about the fact that there are probably a lot of marriages that fail for lesser reasons.
And maybe deserve a second chance I don’t know but it did get me thinking about that.

Geoff Openshaw:
[14:38] Undoubtedly I had one thing that’s also a little bit more Latter Day Saints related to Kobe Bryant so I was down I was doing some wiring,
in the construction area today and one of the workers kind of just popped his head in out of nowhere and just said man Kobe Bryant huh I was like oh yeah I haven’t talked to this guy ton and my day.
And hit an interesting perspective because he said you know like a long time ago I always thought that you know the wealthy the powerful the successful is like basically like they would just never die,
like they didn’t seem to die they were just always around right but the poor people would die the the destitute would die he said but you know he’s like I don’t want to be crass but like this,
chose you know we’re all like equal in the eyes of God like we can all get here and we can all leave here.
Regardless of circumstance and I said that’s actually a very profound statement to make well I’m just sitting on the floor tinkering with a wall outlet so I appreciated that a good reminder that you know made me think of the temple how if we go to the temple.
We’re all wearing white and.
Anybody could be anybody right I’ve never thought about that I’ve been in sessions before you know barring seeing like a Mitt Romney or a Harry Reid or somebody in the session for the most part you’re just like.
I don’t know what these people do for all I know I’m sitting next to some CEO and then right next to him is you know a farmer which happens it’s awesome it’s a beauty of the Temple.
So I’m hoping the rule of 3 is does not manifest itself at some point within the next few days.

Devin Thorpe:
[16:03] Yes that’s hope not.

Geoff Openshaw:
[16:04] That sometimes seems to happen which is no bueno
so interesting bit of news came out of BYU kind of late last week run around with the sisters will recording so I don’t think it made it into their episode BYU’s ballroom dance troupe is quite renowned,
it is a serious legit operation they tour the world,
it is not some token program they have BYU takes its participation in the ballroom dance community,
quite seriously now the national amateur dancesport championships.
I have been hosted by BYU for over 20 years usually the Marriott Center.

[16:42] That’s all well and good what’s happened though is that the NDC a which is the governing body for the Championships
has previously of course always defined a couple as a man and a woman in,
dancing terminology right because it dancing it’s very specific you have a valley you of a man who’s typically a lead and you take a different motions as the lead versus the follower those aren’t supposed to be.
Loaded terms or anything like that but you know misogynistic or anything like that that’s sort of how it is however the in DCA has now changed the rules to allow a leader and a follower without regard to the sex or gender of the dancer,
thus allowing.
Same-gender couples to compete it doesn’t even apply that this like necessarily same same-sex attracted same-gender couples I could literally be two women who just want to dance together or two men who want to dance together,
doesn’t mean it has to be a gay thing I hate to say it that way but I just want to be clear about that I think the insinuation is that it would be something along those lines that those who.

[17:42] Our same sex oriented would want to compete in such a way instead of the traditional rules so,
the reason this applies to BYU is because BYU hosts this event,
and in order to continue to host the event BYU must comply with the rules of the governing body which is to allow this now you’d be forgiven if you saw the headlines and even the one of the deal Universe says BYU allows for same-sex couples in National Ballroom competition.

[18:09] Which is true but you could read that and think this means that BYU is going to offer up same-sex couples
from its own Squad in the competition and I do not believe that will be the case this is merely saying BYU as the host of the event will abide by the NCD as rules and allow other competitors from other universities.
To be same-sex dancers if they so desire,
but don’t be confused and think that this means BYU is suddenly opening it up in the BYU ballroom dance troupe is going to have same gender pairs I do not believe that will be happening I could of course be proven wrong on that front but I don’t think that will be the case so I think.

Devin Thorpe:
[18:50] I hope you’re wrong I hope you’re wrong.

Geoff Openshaw:
[18:52] It’s an interesting little development I think the bottom line is they’re basically doing it because they’re being forced to because it’s either comply or lose out on hosting an event you posted for 20 years and so in this case.
They’re going to spin it how they want to spin it but this is BYU basically just backing down and saying okay well it’s more important that we host the event that it is that we.
Take a stand about hetero couple dancing.
But everything’s good I mean yeah maybe always ballroom dance is amazing I saw them when I was in Ukraine many many years ago they were coming through the country so we saw him perform and it was it was incredible they do great work so well that continues.

Devin Thorpe:
[19:30] Yeah yeah.
Well it is a fascinating fascinating saying and like I say I hope you are you will allow its students to participate that way it would.
It’s rather Hollow to allow other people and not their own students.
That way so but in much less interesting news the Utah ban on conversion therapy for children took effect this week
that’s gotten a little bit of national press.
And it’s directly related to the church we can’t pretend that it’s not that the church was directly involved in crafting language that they would agree to and in fact at one point.
When the compromise was reached the church said they wouldn’t support it and then the governor called and I think he convinced them to accept the language they didn’t make the change that church had requested which would have been the effect gutted,
the band and so the band I think is Meaningful and church approved and I think that’s great.

Geoff Openshaw:
[20:38] It’s good to see this happening well said Devon I’m gonna hit you folks with a couple of random Temple newsy things a little.

[20:48] So Midway stuff here so first of all Durban South Africa open house for the temple they rather the open house is going on
now it began on Wednesday January 22nd will have a break of course on Sunday the 26th but it will go through February 1st so not the longest open house that’s reasonably brief I think it’s less than two weeks actually usually open houses are at least full two weeks this is a.
Week and a half pretty much pretty short I love the design of the Durban Temple never seen one like it I’m sure on the inside it follows the same general floor plan of the.
Modest long rectangle two-story temples versus the three-story rectangular ones but I think it looks great and it is of course the second temple in South Africa following the one in Johannesburg has been there since the 80s.
Which that’s a whole other big fun bit of history when you want to talk about,
priesthood bands based on race and things like that and how it related to getting a temple in South Africa that’s a fun bit of stuff I would encourage you to look into this is great so the open house is going down.
And they’re going to dedicate it on February 16th across three sessions at which point Africa will have its South Africa will have its second temple Africa as a whole will have its fifth Temple but as you know if you’ve been following,
General Conference and of course our Temple predictions.
Many more temples are coming there are two under construction officially that I believe Cape Verde and Ivory Coast and then four more have been announced off the top of my head.

[22:13] We got Nairobi Harari Freetown and I think the oh and Lagos the other one in Nigeria so those have been announced but they’re not yet being constructive but the work goes forward in Africa my good friends and it’s going to continue going forward in Africa which is.
Outstanding and other great groundbreaking news I have have you know full disclosure I have personal things at stake here so as a
good journalist I will disclose my ties to the Richmond Virginia area in that I live an hour away from it so there we go,
we know that they’re going to have the dedication or this sorry the groundbreaking dedication for the Richmond Virginia temple on April 11th 2020 we saw the rendering for the temple come out last fall which we assumed would mean the,
Temple would go get under way here in a few months and so that will be the case so roughly three years from now we should see a dedication and that’s awesome kind of where I’m located down here south of DC I’ve actually been wondering as long as there’s no southbound traffic like on a Saturday.
If it’ll take me.
The same amount of time to drive to Richmond for the temple or drive up to Maryland in DC when that one actually comes back online I’m not exactly sure but it’s super awesome it’s the first temple in Virginia very excited about that.

Devin Thorpe:
[23:23] Congratulations.

Geoff Openshaw:
[23:24] That was thank you thank you thank you I mean we pertained to the DC District no matter what I do when they’re not going to carve us off and put us in the Richmond District also the the now christened,
Alabang Philippines Temple will,
have its groundbreaking on May 2nd that is the one that is in the Muntinlupa District which is it was basically the second temple in Manila that was announced back in April 2017.
Making no manila one of the few places in the world with two temples other Lima Peru Provo and officially South Jordan Utah has two temples in it but.
That one’s already advertised that we compared to the other one so this will be the second temple in Manila that’s underway and coming back to Utah the fine people of Layton or Layton Layton on May 30th.
Will receive their groundbreaking May 30th for the rather large and Architectural e unadventurous Layton Utah Temple.
Congratulations I’m not pleased with that one the way it looks it’s perfectly fine but it’s just fine.
Like the Saratoga Springs Temple is way more interesting looking compared to that one so.

Devin Thorpe:
[24:28] Yeah well speaking of temples though everybody’s got to find the photos of the church tearing down.
Part of the st. George temple because it’s striking I don’t think most of us appreciated that the remodel.
Would include tearing off some of the additions that have been made to the temple over the years so they can replace the additions with better more architectural e appropriate editions so.

Geoff Openshaw:
[25:00] And I didn’t even know that that and I never even knew looking at the st. George temple I saw this too that it’s the west side of the temple to physically the back of it,
has been added on to it some point I don’t even know this it happened to have basically to accommodate a larger staircase that that was what that entire,
structure was if I’m not mistaken so that’s gone now it’s kind of funny it’s not that’s gone you see the original back of the temple so it’s got the windows and all these things that they clearly just covered up at some point the 70s and they remain.

Devin Thorpe:
[25:26] They’ve done the same thing in the Salt Lake Temple that is they have built on and hidden the old outside windows and so there are places in the temple where you don’t realize you’re looking at a window.
That has a false wall behind it and between the wall and the window they have lights so that it looks like you’re looking at the lights outside when in fact you’re looking at the lights inside of a wall and then you go outside that room and then there is a hallway,
and it’s freaky.

Geoff Openshaw:
[25:54] Is that a now with those be the old windows is that where they had that old Edition with the extra ceiling rooms were on the North side so it’s so kind of on the original wall between that and those.

Devin Thorpe:
[26:04] Yeah so the original wall is in the celestial room you can look out the window you know it’s all frosted glass you can’t really look out but if you could look out you would now look into a wall but they light it.

Geoff Openshaw:
[26:19] I didn’t realize they did that in the celestial room it’s in the celestial room.

Devin Thorpe:
[26:22] Yeah so it’s it’s kind of cool and freaky at the same time.

Geoff Openshaw:
[26:28] I didn’t know they did that the celestial I thought I guess one thing I forget about the Salt Lake Temple when you see it from the outside.
Is that even the celestial room is not as high up as you would think it would be I mean it’s only on the second level basically so it’s easy to look at it as tall building to assume it’s high up so that’s why I mean I guess
thinking about those ceiling rooms that Annex I guess that would kind of go over the celestial room is on the north side of the building like that yeah you’re correct interesting.

Devin Thorpe:
[26:54] You’re much better oriented than II get lost as second I walk in the door.

Geoff Openshaw:
[26:58] I’m thinking about how it’s all laid out and it’s funny how they’ve done that I mean on the other side of that you’ve got something like the Logan,
Temple which of course is a is literally a shell of its former self and that the temple is a shell and inside is just this I mean Devin it basically looks like the cabinets behind you in terms of the beautiful woodwork.
The they just kind of whatever you know it looks like a product of the 70s in the did it out of necessity for capacity reasons but if you go to the Logan Temple you will be shocked at there’s nothing Pioneer Ash on the inside
I don’t know if there are any real windows and use at all because if you go on the outside of the temple you can see that the old Pioneer windows are painted black when you get up close.
And so it’s a lot of but back then I don’t even think they went to the effort to put in the false windows that they do nowadays to make it,
still have the appearance I think you’re just in these windowless rooms that are just.

Devin Thorpe:
[27:49] That is interesting my parents were married in the Logan Temple but I have never been in it.

Geoff Openshaw:
[27:55] I went there only once when I was I think way back when I was at school at the Y or something like that I decided one day to play hooky from class I was taking an econ course at the Salt Lake Annex and I decided to blow it off and just drive to Logan and go to the temple instead just,
had it been there so I thought it was fun so that was cool.
And another temple with false windows I don’t know each other ones do this I’d love to hear from our listeners by the way you know our email address contact at this week and Mormons.com or comment on the Facebook post for this.
The Manhattan Temple does the false window thing as well I know that one for sure because when they built that too.
Remove it from all the sound out in a very busy part of Manhattan they effectively built a building within a building and so when you’re in the rooms there and you see these windows it’s the same thing they just have fake lights behind them and that I assumed they’d even adjust depending on the time of day.
And the effect works really really well because you compare that to like the second level of that building where there’s the meeting house and I’ve been there just for like meetings and you can hear all the traffic going on outside.
Past the Lincoln Center when you’re up in the temples it’s pretty quiet so I’d be very curious which other temples are actually employing the false one is it can’t be that many of them you know bye.
To tell they are.

Devin Thorpe:
[29:04] Yeah that is great great question to research.

Geoff Openshaw:
[29:08] So you want real quick you did mention the Salt Lake Temple we know it’s closed right now for a 4-year renovation pretty cool some photos got out last week here showing what’s just just summon it’s like for interior shots of the Temple,
which is now no longer dedicated
under construction at what it really means is you to see some shots of parts of the temple with just a bunch of crates and things and various pieces of furniture wrapped up
caringly to take care of them you see the Assembly Hall upstairs looking very nicely lit actually with the window and all sorts of just materials around and it’s just it’s,
just interesting to see what’s going on with that but that’s that’s on our Facebook page you can check it out nothing much else to it but it’s pretty cool to see what they get.

Devin Thorpe:
[29:49] I was kind of surprised the other day when I walked by the Temple Square and the that South Visitor Center was just gone gone.

Geoff Openshaw:
[29:56] Yeah it’s gone it’s over.

Devin Thorpe:
[29:59] Yeah one interesting thing that you highlighted this week was Elder Stevenson.
Participated at the Martin Luther King memorial event and that got covered in a few places.

Geoff Openshaw:
[30:19] With elder Peter M Johnson who I might add.

Devin Thorpe:
[30:22] Good good reminder good reminder you know it’s a good reminder.
You know on MLK Day the Des news also did an editorial.
To remind everyone let’s think about who Their audience is though really that’s Mormons to remind everyone to be introspective about their own racism.
And I thought that was really a profound reminder because we all.
And I mean almost all in a literal sense but certainly virtually all of us have implicit biases that creep into our thinking.
And those of us raised in the church suffer from that more because the church.
For a hundred years didn’t give blacks the priesthood didn’t let him into the temple and.

[31:21] We turned ourselves in knots trying to figure out why as a people and so I think that,
the legacy of that is,
pretty profound and it really is important for us to be introspective about how we completely try to purge our minds of that Legacy,
bias and it’s not just Mormons,
Mormons are not more racist than others I don’t think in the you know in the United States but it we need to be less,
racist than everybody else.

Geoff Openshaw:
[31:58] I think we’ve been working on that a lot I mean I haven’t been very amazed.
At the steps we’ve taken to partner more with the NAACP in particular in the past few years and that’s what part of this event was was for right it was too.
Be chummy with them I mean we’ve we’ve had difficulties with the NAACP in the past so we are really working very hard especially the executive level.
To work that engagement I think it’s great because it sends the messaging to the rest of the church like guys that you know take this seriously and I think we tend to think of you know,
then double AC p– MLK we think a lot about African-American issues in particular but I hope that we can use it as a stepping stone to remember,
do you like you said you know the inherent bias the latent racial bias that any of us might have whether it’s not towards African-Americans but towards anyone have any anyone who looks different from us right we make assumptions about them or whatever it may be.

Devin Thorpe:
[32:51] We’ve got a lot more progress to make with respect to women.
Because I think there are doctrinal questions that confound that us making progress on that right the just this month Church put out a statement in the new era that said unequivocally.
Men and women are equal.
But we don’t support the Equal Rights Amendment and by the way just because they’re equal doesn’t mean they’re the same and so there are confusing confounding issues for us on gender questions so we got a lot to sort out stuff.

Geoff Openshaw:
[33:27] We do you think we’re working on it and we’re getting there.
I mentioned earlier Peter M Johnson was there if you’re familiar with him I think I talked about him a couple weeks ago he presided over our stick conference a few weeks ago and so he’s a,
he spoke in general conference he’s the first African American General Authority
very interesting guy but something else I noticed as they publish the assignments for the various members of the 70 like they do every year you know and they change up area presidencies and this and that Elder Johnson however has been assigned to serve as the mission president,
in the Manchester England Mission which I think is very interesting I tried to reach out to some people who might know better than I could.

[34:04] What history do we have of that it’s one thing of course we’re like Mission presidents after they get released become 70s or some Mission presidents while serving as Mission presidents have been called to the 70 you know.
We hate to use it but you don’t moving up at the same time.
How often is it happened today outside of let’s see the early pioneer days of the church when things were a lot different then how often has it been that a general Authority a who was called first as a general Authority is then given an assignment,
to not preside over an area not be part of the area presidency but to be a mission president specifically.
I don’t have the answer I’ve tried to look this up a little bit I think there’s a few examples of it I’m extremely curious how common,
or not that is I don’t know if one else this might have happened but also I feel like Elder Johnson’s already become a little more prominent so maybe we’re noticing.
Some you know for lack of a better term just to some random 70 who we haven’t heard much from yet.
Also receive the same call so I’m just curious about that I don’t know of very often today standing General Authority.
Is brought in to be the president of a mission which is and why and if is this because as Manchester England failing miserably does it need a general Authority touch like what’s going on up there in the Midlands I don’t know no no just.

Devin Thorpe:
[35:19] It may be because he hasn’t done it before I don’t know his background is he done it has he been a mission president before.

Geoff Openshaw:
[35:27] I’m not sure I should know this having been in a meeting with him but but even then it’s all good.

Devin Thorpe:
[35:31] If he hasn’t it may just be the church wants him to have that experience before they call him to do something else.

Geoff Openshaw:
[35:39] They could.
We could I don’t know but they want to have that experience want to call this a mission I mean he was only called the 70 like less than a year ago so I don’t know very interesting I don’t know so if anybody has any insights on that drop us a line I’d just be curious what kind of a history,
that practice has I know there might not be a why but just to know more about it would be cool just for me because I’m a nerd thank you in advance.
I love you.

[36:09] Mio I don’t know I mean I’m Devin the people come here for you you don’t need.

Devin Thorpe:
[36:14] Yeah right.
Well let’s jump it let’s jump it you you raised a topic here on our little topic list that we’re really intrigued me.
I think you probably covered it last week but the come follow me manuals had an old.
Some would call it racist explanation for about or interpretation of Book of Mormon references to curse and skin and dark and all of this and the church upon discovering it.
Corrected the online edition of the manuals immediately so the come follow me manual you have on your phone does not match the ones your Bishop passed out earlier this month.
Which has this old again what some would call racist explanation for around the curse.

Geoff Openshaw:
[37:12] And by some would call to be clear Elder Stevenson and Apostle apologized for this like made it clear this was a mistake we don’t support the teachings that somehow made it in there I don’t know how they got through.

Devin Thorpe:
[37:24] Well you know I kind of know I mean I hate to admit it I like to think of myself as the most woke Mormon alive and.
Reading the original text I was thinking well that looks like and sounds like what I’ve heard in church a hundred times and it didn’t.
Resonate amine as offensive as it is to me,
it didn’t strike me as being no longer valid and so it was really pleasing to me to have the church say yeah that’s no longer valid thinking just because a prophet said it doesn’t mean we believe.
So it was you know I think it was really a good response but what’s interesting is that the piece you highlighted and I apologize for kind of stealing your thunder here.

Geoff Openshaw:
[38:10] Is our Thunder Devin we share the Thunder.

Devin Thorpe:
[38:13] Well thank you you’re very generous with your thunder the been spackman wrote this piece that he gotten into an argument on Facebook I can’t imagine that would ever happen.
With some folks at the church who were essentially arguing that it was inappropriate to correct them.
That they don’t do anything wrong that they seek the spirit and guidance of you know heavenly father in everything they do.
And then after they have sought Revelation in putting together the manuals they run them by General Authorities who then approve them in the correlation process so they are perfect.
And Ben spackman pointed out to them that.

[39:02] An apostle had in fact said there was an error in the process that yielded an outcome in an error in the content of the manuals that had to be corrected.
And so it was an interesting take and it really highlights the.
Attention I really feel all the time between sort of the Orthodox Mormons that are are intent on defending the truth.
And other Mormons who I think of myself being more in this group are wanting to,
seek find and discover truth rather than so much to defend it and anyway it was an interesting,
context for this whole thing this so I appreciate you sharing this piece by Ben spackman on his on his blog.

Geoff Openshaw:
[39:53] I love this piece I thought it was extremely well thought out and reasoned and.
It just speaks to our issues like guys when you have an apostle standing Apostle saying hey guys this this made it through somehow it shouldn’t have hopefully it was not intentionally I mean I don’t know how this gets past the.
The editors and the correlation people on all of those levels I maybe it’s people just thought like you know like you kind of reference Devin and just said yeah there’s the mark the dark mark stuff yeah okay sure that’s the thing.
But like an apostle disavowed it folks and that shows us very clearly that even though I believe manuals are reviewed by the 12 and they have a role in these sorts of things
that stuff can slip through and we can make mistakes and it is it’s just it’s very silly to assume that.
I mean I love that no one could are I love where is his quote he mentioned someone on a mission or was that I got to find that one real quick.

[40:56] Oh someone so he saw an anecdote about a mission president on by Common consent.
It said my mission president tried to paint a picture of James E Talmage sitting in the upper room of the Salt Lake Temple taking shorthand notes as he interviewed Christ himself for the story of his life.
Quote you can be assured that your discussion booklets and missionary guide have been provided in the same way when you teach you are using the literal words of.
Now if you’re quoting scripture yes if you are quoting a random passage from preach my gospel.
You know you’re teaching the principles of Christ but you’re not like using I don’t believe that preach my gospel like the sections and the way it’s written out were dictated by the Lord I think these were just.
Thought about with inspiration and then verified.

Devin Thorpe:
[41:44] And I think even our scriptures.
You know Joseph Smith described the Book of Mormon as being the most perfect book.
It’s interesting he didn’t say it was perfect he said it was the most perfect which implies that it isn’t quite perfect and that’s.

Geoff Openshaw:
[42:04] Resident,
pedantic here can something can we modify perfect can something be more or less Perfect Isn’t it just it is or it isn’t isn’t that like when you say something is Kyle is kind of ubiquitous you can’t modify ubiquitous I just feel like we I don’t think we can.

Devin Thorpe:
[42:20] It’s not my phrasing.

Geoff Openshaw:
[42:21] I know Devin I just feel like.

Devin Thorpe:
[42:24] So it is an interesting thing that we could discuss what did he mean when he said the most correct I think I think he was he said most.

Geoff Openshaw:
[42:31] He did say most correct actually you know.

Devin Thorpe:
[42:33] Most correct yeah so I misquoted and yeah.

Geoff Openshaw:
[42:36] But can something be only kind of correct isn’t it either correct or it.

Devin Thorpe:
[42:40] Same same.

Geoff Openshaw:
[42:41] Oh my gosh my pedantry knows no bounds.

Devin Thorpe:
[42:44] So you know that raises you know the let me just slip this in here because you raised that but Robert Kirby wrote for the Tribune this week about Nephi murdering Laban.
And it was an interesting take you know Robert Kirby writes to the Tribune he’s a humor columnist so it’s a funny article.
Quote unquote.

Geoff Openshaw:
[43:10] I’m not I’m not I’m not in Camp Kirby but if you are that.

Devin Thorpe:
[43:12] Yeah it’s all right but he did make I think a valid point and it gets at this point you were making about the the scriptures to some extent and that is the language.
That describes the context for killing Laban was all written by Nephi the guy who killed Laban.
And so.
You know I don’t want to treat it as if well of course it’s a lousy defense he made up the angel after he killed I don’t want to suggest that,
you know Mormon obviously edited the book he included it Joseph Smith translated it he included it,
you know the explanation is,
probably pretty sound after those two thoughtful reviews but nonetheless we are you know as we look at that story the explanation about how it came about.
We only have Nephi’s take of course we know he killed him because he ended up with his clothes he ended up with the records and he ended up with his servant so it’s pretty apparent.
That the story is factual from the just from the record itself but the.
Explanation is just Nephi explaining why he did it and you know I say just anyway interesting.

Geoff Openshaw:
[44:38] No it’s all fair I mean you can even go back like.
This goes in all sorts of areas like it makes me think of you know the multiple accounts of the first Vision that also happened much later down the line the very fact that Nephi we forget that when we read the book of Nephi this is Nephi actually writing his account roughly 20 to 30 years after it happened as well.
Then just do it right then and there so of course.
Everything gets processed through a certain lens whether it is yes the exact I choose to trust Nephi when it comes to the the Laban episode.
Even so he’s had a lot of time to dwell upon everything that went down at the time and you know that’s okay don’t forget.

Devin Thorpe:
[45:14] And maybe agonize over and say anyway interestingly.

Geoff Openshaw:
[45:17] Good thoughts my friend speaking of some scriptures here in the Book of Mormon Jana Reese it’s pretty funny she wrote an article and then run another article today to in some ways apologize for her initial article why you may ask because.
Generous succumb to the temptation to have a hot headline that would drive clicks that’s what happened because the article is called a survival as you actually actually renamed the article.
Is used to say an article how to survive the dumpster fire that is come follow me I believe that’s what it’s actually says it’s still in the URL.

Devin Thorpe:
[45:51] Making Mormons guy.

Geoff Openshaw:
[45:52] Thinking Mormon Survival Guide to this year’s dumpster fire of a curriculum that is what it used to be called now it just says a survival guide to the 2020 Book of Mormon come follow me curriculum.
Jenna feels like she was being a bit too incendiary I think.

Devin Thorpe:
[46:06] You know the first thing I thought I sorry to interrupt the first thing I thought when I saw the headline is I thought oh no Jeff’s not gonna like that.

Geoff Openshaw:
[46:14] Jen is always got something to complain about she’s a very bright person with it does interesting research that the same time you know,
45% of her articles are just like aimless rants about something that bothered her at church or she publishes someone else’s rant I don’t know whatever so.
Yes that headline you’re like okay well.
Good but her main point is that come follow me doesn’t cut it she also references the whole thing we just talked about with the come follow me issues,
study all day.

Devin Thorpe:
[46:46] That’s what motivated the head.

Geoff Openshaw:
[46:48] That motivated everything but basically she’s upset that likes with some others on Twitter that people are unwilling to destroy the printed ones at the church is not recalling the printed manuals,
and burning them,
there might be something to be said for that I think the church is banking on the fact that very few people are looking at the printed manuals and that’s just going to be life right so she says let’s just burn down the entire come follow me curriculum and start from scratch arguing that.
You know the basically come follow me seems to be just weekly self-congratulations there’s nothing challenging it’s mostly just kind of I think she describes it elsewhere as trying,
sell us on something we already bought more or less.
I could get some of this and she spent the rest of the article actually suggesting some worthwhile study supplements that thing that’s a perfectly good thing to include so and we’ll get to those but.

[47:43] I don’t know I guess I could see this I’ve still had mixed feelings about come follow me and I say that recognizing that I haven’t been perfect and following it or implementing it with my family so I I mean I wonder if that makes me.
Allowed to comment on it when I know if I have you know tested it completely but I think the way I do look at the way the curriculum has been structured from what I’ve read,
because we got rid of gospel Doctrine and we got rid of gospel principles you know these sort of entry level course now all we have is come follow me and if you were to look at the two of them at different levels.
Or let’s say numbers let’s say gospel principles was a zero and and gospel Doctrine was a 1,
I don’t think this was an effort that brought them into the middle like to put us at 0.5 or have glitches say 1 to 10 i 0 to 10 right so we’re not five anymore I feel like it’s more that what was gospel Doctrine has been,
watered down a bit so we’re more like a three and a half so we brought up the gospel principle discussion but I do worry that we.
Have brought down some of the other stuff in our effort to focus on the simple truths of the Gospel which matter quite a bit and then that is super important it really is.
But I get where Jenna I don’t necessarily agree with the way Janet decided to go about phrasing her remarks but I get where she’s going with this yeah.

Devin Thorpe:
[48:57] I think the new curriculum I may like it a little more than you do and certainly more than Jana does.
I think it’s more of a start Where You Are.
It’s intended to really personalize our study of the scriptures which I think is good but I completely share.
Jana’s perception of our traditional Sunday school structure and that perpetuate is perpetuated by some teachers still write that old pattern and the old pattern she described it and I thought the boy she just nailed it but the pattern is
we have the truth and only we have all the truth,
and then everyone else we feel sorry for them because they don’t have all the truth and they’re missing out and of course then we need to find ways to be more obedient.
And and that formula was.
Pervasive not Universal but it was pervasive in the approach to Sunday school and I think the new curriculum frees us from that more than Jana gives us credit for I think it’s more of a start Where You Are.

Geoff Openshaw:
[50:01] Yeah I think that’s fair I do agree with some of the things that she says where.
I wish she did she described as like in solar and it can be shallow and some things along those lines I’m not totally on board with that but I do agree that.
We do some of the sort of you know us versus them formulations.
We still kind of lean on that she says like quote it’s more committed to advertising the correctness of the institution of the church than it,
does or it is in uncovering the actual meanings of the scriptures that’s an interesting way to look at it
I think I think it’s important to remember that curriculum is developed for a very broad audience and it’s going to depend a lot on your teacher and on the people in your ward
and that has to be that way you know so we can’t have every single class be some sort of really really big deep dive like it says the meanings of the scriptures I think that’s important to study,
but how academic,
how deep do you want to go picking apart verse by verse for the actual the meanings and what this means from the original Greek translation and all these things that you’re a value and I think very interesting but it might be unreasonable to expect that,
in the such a broad of a setting as Sunday school during a weekly Church.

Devin Thorpe:
[51:12] So I do hope that people will use the curriculum to really discover the scriptures for themselves and that classrooms will.
Give people the opportunity to explore the meaning of the scriptures for themselves in their own lives because it.
The intellectual side which I value isn’t really that important that the scriptures aren’t their only real value is the extent to which we.
You know internalize them and so I hope this the new come follow me helps people to internalize and really think about the scriptures and what they mean and not.
Getting too caught up in the intellectual.

Geoff Openshaw:
[51:56] Amen to that.

Devin Thorpe:
[51:57] And you know Jana it did give you mentioned she made a list of some things that are resources let me just imagine stick these off real quickly but she,
she mentioned a book that I recently bought and started reading I can’t tell you how good it is because I just started reading it but it’s really appealing to me as a liberal Mormon it’s written by.
Crazy liberal social justice Warriors and and they’ve just written this exegesis this take,
on the Book of Mormon they call the Book of Mormon for the least of these and it’s sort of looking at the Book of Mormon through that lens which I’m really excited about.
Another book she talked about is a book called The Book of Mormon made harder which is kind of an interesting.
Reversal of that concept of making things easier the BYU Maxwell and.

Geoff Openshaw:
[52:54] President Nelson must love that one.

Devin Thorpe:
[52:55] Yeah BYU’s Maxwell Institute has a 10 volume series that has just come out or is just coming out.
About the Book of Mormon so that should be really great for those of us who like getting more.
And then she bladed lie for you know she forgot and reminded herself and reminded us about an older Book 2010 book called understanding The Book of Mormon so those are,
for resources that we can consider as we think about studying The Book of Mormon this year.

Geoff Openshaw:
[53:31] Where were you,
we’ll remember those I’ve got a Kind of a Funny mention here it’s important to remember that Apostles are like ambassadors in many ways you know and.
The church just week are first and foremost about the church functioning I think especially those of us in the west want the church to be some sort of vehicle for Democratic regime change and things like that around the world you know we want the church to stand up against,
against what four Americans are First Amendment rights even if such rights might not even exist in other countries and we try to balance that hole
issue between you know the articles of Faith what we support the government were in it as well as like standing up for actual
personal freedoms and Liberties and things like that in saying that I want to mention the wonderful man known as Rodrigo duterte the Philippines delightful president / murderer so.

Devin Thorpe:
[54:25] It’s the perfect introduction.

Geoff Openshaw:
[54:29] So
really what this was is of course they had the volcanic eruptions been going on in the Philippines and the church is stepped up as we often like to do and engage in charitable work and help to get
materials and funds and things where they need to be which is great and we use that opportunity to send Elder cook to meet with
president duterte give him some of his family history that the usual.
Process we seem to do with leaders when we meet them and I don’t even imagine it was a particularly long meeting I would just say it’s.
It’s very easy to jump on this and be like dude.
Like what are we doing with dude and duterte has his supporters for sure that’s fine but it’s easy to say like why are we legitimizing a regime that engages in some questionable activities.
And that depends on one’s point of view but it’s important to remember the church isn’t in the business of legitimizing political regimes one way or another especially somewhere like the Philippines we’re not going to do ourselves any favors if.
Our,
if we’re in the sights of Filipino leaders in a country where we have a lot of members and it’ll number of temples I mean we don’t want to be kicked out of anywhere but the Philippines would be a very bad place for us.

Devin Thorpe:
[55:41] Yeah nearly a million Mormons.

Geoff Openshaw:
[55:43] To hit the skids yeah exactly so I mean the same thing goes with you know the church I don’t think is appreciated everything that’s gone down and Russia with missionaries over the past few years at the same time,
you’re not going to find many public statements from the church saying we condemn Russia for this Behavior.

Devin Thorpe:
[55:58] Right no it’s never been the church’s style and you know my favorite.
Bad example of this is the church excommunicated some dudes in.
In Germany during World War II who were working with the underground to fight the Nazis.
And they excommunicated them and they were only they had their membership posthumously restored in the 90s.
But you know those that epitomizes The Dilemma of the church operating in the real world,
and the way these all of our beliefs interact it’s not you no clear cut.

Geoff Openshaw:
[56:44] It’s tough because we’re trying to build God’s kingdom while having to work around the,
the fallible and sometimes completely wrong rules of man but I don’t know how you reconcile the Article of Faith mandate that we support you know our leadership and where we are and this and that at the same time.
Not feeling like it’s weird to agitate for change in areas like where I mean just look at the United States for example and obviously the church has its own issues with race in the past.
I mean like how would it have been back when you know if you were fighting against slavery where it was legal for example.
What were you and that was an issue of course even in the early days of the church I mean a lot of people in Missouri took issue because most of the members of the church coming into Missouri where Northerners who were against slavery and of course Missouri was a.
It was a hot area for that sort of issue you know being a Union state that allowed slavery so yeah fun times all around just the churches wants to be the church in like spread the gospel folks even if the other stuff isn’t what it should be we’re just trying to do our best.

Devin Thorpe:
[57:45] Yeah.

[57:49] You know in this theme of trying to understand the Book of Mormons issues around race one of my friends actually wrote a piece for the tribute Salt Lake Tribune this week Holly Richardson.
She’s a former Utah legislator she’s working on a PhD she’s brilliant she’s a regular columnist for the trip as well among all she’s a mess she’s a mother to 25 children I kid you not,
25 children she’s just an amazing human.

[58:20] Truly are but she has also adopted a number of kids from all around the world so she has a whole you know the extent that we believe in such things race as race she has a racial potpourri of children.
And so she she thinks deeply about those things and she wrote about the this idea that the curse.
Was that is referred to in the Book of Mormon was never a curse of this skin color of the.
I have the lamanites but instead may have referred to their clothing which were skins.
And there is a really good evidence of that that at one point the Nephites send a spy who is an old Limonite.
In to go spy on the lamanites and.

Geoff Openshaw:
[59:22] And what are your thoughts on all of this.

Devin Thorpe:
[59:24] Yeah you know I think you know there I probably I think I got that wrong anyway the Spy but the bottom line is he was not found out because of his skin,
and he would have been found out if the skin color was different so in any case I think the I think.
Re-envisioning the curse to have been something other than skin color it would really be good for us and I think there is room for us to re-envision that and.
I totally think about it in a different way.

Geoff Openshaw:
[59:55] Like admittedly so we read through the old you know the classic like Illustrated Book of Mormon story you know the one.
They do it for all four of the main standard works now the church puts out the ones all the all the drawings the cartoon version things.
The book not the Living Scriptures which are also great but,
I admit like I feel sometimes weird reading it with my kids because there’s all these chapters that show the lamanites being these bad Savages,
I guess the Nephites and they are clearly amerindian in appearance which is,
something that we’ve sort of still support or what have you but I admit like I sometimes I look at it I’m like like like what am I telling my kids are acting like they’re gonna get it ingrained in their heads that like the brown people are,
always causing trouble for the lighter skinned ones I worry about that I genuinely do I mean I read them when I was a kid and I think I turned out fine but.
I don’t know I just I don’t know if we’re just so woke nowadays that we think about these things and it should be okay but I don’t know what else you would do like we know that there’s some element of that so how do you depict that visually in a way that’s not offensive per se or at.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:00:59] Yeah I think it’s I think there’s really good argument for us to start drying everyone in the Book of Mormon context in the same complexion.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:01:08] They could at the very least draw also draw the Nephites so they don’t look like they just you know you know left the local meters.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:01:17] Yeah.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:01:19] Like some of these I’m like guys I understand the like officially like even people of Erebor Middle Eastern descent are Caucasian technically speaking the like they don’t look like that like I’m pretty sure Amman.
Did it look like just that dude you saw over a jack-in-the-box earlier in the week who just like they’re not just a bunch of like pasty white people.
We can I talked about earlier you know we talked about funding the middle ground between the two courses let’s find the middle ground between the ratio.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:01:47] Yeah let’s just use one middle complete.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:01:50] Let’s not look the Nephites be so white in the limited let’s try to find something better so anyway well I think we’re going to wrap it up Devin unless you have anything else you want to hit on big time before we go.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:02:00] Go let’s just take one minute please forgive me but I missed the week when we got to talk about a hundred billion dollars which,
you know it’s I know it’s old news but you know what did come out this week,
is you know the standard examiner got a tax expert in to evaluate this and I’ve read other pieces as well I think it is clear that there’s almost no chance that the IRS will,
based on the representations of the brothers that that that the church misbehave.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:02:38] Devin get on board with the Intrigue man come on.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:02:41] Yeah I think the money is safe now that said I do think it is silly that some people out of the church,
I think that the church is bad because they have a hundred billion dollars and some people in the church think the church just got more true because the church has a hundred billion dollars.
I think both of those are really simple.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:03:01] Let’s find the middle people 50 billion dollars and leave it at that once again.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:03:05] Anyway that’s okay we can go now.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:03:08] Okay good deal so folks if you like what you heard or want to hear more of it go to patreon.com slash this week in Mormons and pledged a buck like per month,
twelve dollars a year dollar a month that is less than you would spend to buy a soda from a vending machine and it’s much less than a trip to Swig or so delicious will cost you I assure you and we will not expand your waistline,
only your mind all that there we go it’s a tag right there also this week in Mormons.com
send us an email contact at this week in Mormons.com you through feedback and thoughts we had some questions for you our listeners we’d love to hear from you on that we hope you’ll follow us on social media as well Devin do have anything to plug at this point or are we just in stasis and that’s okay.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:03:50] No you’re out you can always find me on Forbes but please just you know pledge a bucket patreon for twin.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:03:58] Look at that look at that and I will give I will give 20 cents of it to Devan what do you think of that.
Well I’d like to thank Google Devin Thorpe for taking some time out of his his busy schedule to hang out with me it’s very nice of you Devon it’s always good to have you here in the hot seat.

Devin Thorpe:
[1:04:16] Pleasures all mine thank.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:04:17] Well thank you very much and I appreciate all of you tuning and seriously you make it possible thank you for being our audience and for being there for us and we hope you have a terrific week until we meet again be well be holy and be.