EP 461 – One Handbook to Rule Them All

One general handbook replaces two, Mitt Romney chugs chocolate milk, nursing mothers denied entry to BYU event, Utahns want church finances to be public!

[dropcap]P[/dropcap]lease give a warm welcome to Jared Gillins, whom we haven’t heard from since our dynamite Christmas stories episode!

Last week, we learned that the Church is combining Handbooks 1 and 2 into a single Handbook. One handbook to rule them all! So what will change in this new handbook? What might be removed? We know what we know and we don’t know what we don’t know, but we can speculate to no end, as is our specialty.

Church Announces New Combined General Handbook of Instructions

We’ve spoken a lot in recent months (and years) about preventing abuse and Church leaders’ responsibilities to in reporting abusive situations to the proper authorities. The Church has rolled out new requirements to protect youth, but a terrible story dating back to 2011 demonstrates the human failings in protecting kids. A father confessed to sexually abusing his children, but his bishop did not report the confession to the authorities. It was not until 2017, and many abuses and victims later, that investigators caught up to the man. Will the new guidelines prevent situations like this?

New research by the Salt Lake Tribune, which our beloved Kurt Francom will decry as being inherently anti-Church just for conducting the research (love you, Kurt!), shows that a majority of Utahns want tax-exempt religious organizations to be required to report income. However, a small minority of self-identified active Latter-day Saints want the same.

Also keeping with the headline-grabbing Tribune, apparently nursing mothers are no longer welcome at BYU Women’s Week, a change from years past. Our gut reaction is to disagree with this, but we also recognize some of the rationale behind the move. So is it a fair decision or does it make attendance exclusive?

Who watched the Super Bowl? Who watched the Halftime Show with Shakira and Jennifer Lopez? Who was enraged at the wanton displays of sexuality and filthiness? Let’s talk about the reaction among Christian circles in the wake of what many have felt was an overtly sexual production (primarily due to a pole upon with J Lo actually did not dance).

Williard “Mitt” Romney, better known by his excellent pseudonym, has spent the past few weeks sitting in the chambers of the U.S. Senate listening to impeachment arguments. Senate rules dictate that only water and milk – served in a glass – are allowed in the room, but Mitt, ever the rogue, was caught sipping BYU Creamery chocolate milk. And we almost trusted this man with the presidency. SHAMEFUL.

And now, Competing Figures in Mormonism™! Alex “The Tattooed Mormon” Carraway spoke to an over-capacity crowd at BYU. Meanwhile, in more remote southeastern Idaho, emeritus General Authority Seventy Larry EchoHawk spoke at a commemoration event for the Bear River Massacre. Which was better? You decide!

Due to resource supply issues, the Church is pulling back a number of missionaries in the West African nation of Liberia. Hopefully they return at some point.

Church Reducing Missionary Numbers in Liberia

Should we embrace our more evangelical friends and use so-called “praise music” as part of our worship? Our own Jeff Borders has some thoughts, and as a convert, they come with perspective.

The Convert Files: Are We Missing Great Praise Music?

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Geoff Openshaw:
[0:00] Todos Bienvenidos as the surrounding one – gracias por estar aqui con Nosotros,
boy mom was upload them which is nice cause us he has to run away from your por que también me present to present a present a present the door.
Que esta conmigo Jared Diamond’s hablar español the actual Health Service habit reducir espanyol Sabado Gigante Bienvenidos a todos.

Jared Gillins:
[0:24] Wow yeah seriously as you started that up my first thought was is this don’t fancy school is this Sabado Gigante.

Geoff Openshaw:
[0:31] All about Sabado Gigante is the best show I love that it’s a show called giant Saturday it’s the perfect name for a program of that nature anyway from now I’m I totally slipped on the word host for as it presented or present.

Jared Gillins:
[0:45] I’m really not sure.

Geoff Openshaw:
[0:46] You’re a presenter that’s what that’s the because it comes from the British speak they don’t call people hosts in the UK or called a presenter when you present a program.

Jared Gillins:
[0:53] I didn’t know that.

Geoff Openshaw:
[0:55] Well now you do.

Jared Gillins:
[0:56] T IL that in the UK your presenter not a host.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:01] Many of them that’s neither here nor there everyone thanks for taking the time to be with us this week we hope
you will of course you know contact us you’re listening to the show you have things feedback things to say contacted this week and Mormons.com or go to our Facebook page,
leave comments there with this post we like to know what you’re thinking about the material we discuss and of course Jared gillins is here.

Jared Gillins:
[1:22] We’re also on Twitter I do believe.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:24] Yeah in passing I have a love-hate relationship with Twitter.

Jared Gillins:
[1:28] So do you feel like you’re a member of the Twitter stake but you’re only like a Sunday Mormon on the Twitter stake.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:33] In a way I’m not as much on the Twitter with with the churchy stuff or with the twins stuff as I have been it was there but I’ve only got time to manage so many social media channels so for me Facebook gets top priority.

Jared Gillins:
[1:47] Makes sense that’s where that’s where I see most of the interaction so.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:51] We get a lot on their Instagrams good to we try to work on our Instagram page,
it depends but we could do more but this is how this is how my heart sell people we could do more art what we do on social media could be better I’m not going to lie to you but you should follow it anyway like it’s marginally disappointing but it’s okay,
come along the Great.
Folks up by the way we’re I’m joining you now from the new nerve center of this week in Mormons last week I decried my contractor and I will decry him until the day I die but this week I join you all knew from my dedicated office Studio,
it is fabulous and there’s so much unput away boxes in here that it’s absorbing all of the echo that would otherwise be here which is good,
for everyone involved so if you’re noticing a major difference in the quality of the show this week it is because of that I come to you from a basement in my home,
very excited.

Jared Gillins:
[2:47] In South Northern Virginia.

Geoff Openshaw:
[2:49] You could just yeah I mean I don’t know yeah sure fine.

Jared Gillins:
[2:53] Yeah how do you because I mean you’re I think you’re still you’re not you’re outside of the Beltway but you’re still I would say Northern Virginia because you’re part of the greater DC metro area.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:02] SCS of course we’re still in Northern Virginia I.

Jared Gillins:
[3:04] But you’re like South Northern Virginia because you’re almost a Fredericksburg.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:07] Okay out for one I’m not almost to Fredericksburg Fredericksburg is without traffic’s half hours south of here I can get to where you I can get to where you live in less time than that if there’s no.

Jared Gillins:
[3:17] Okay okay that’s fair that’s.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:19] Alexander Alexander he’s only 15 minutes away if there’s no traffic it’s not a big deal.

Jared Gillins:
[3:23] What about Manassas Battlefield how far is that.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:25] That would also depend on traffic I’ve got across all of Manasses to get there but 25ish minutes maybe.

Jared Gillins:
[3:32] Okay so yeah you’re not quite in the South you’re not in the south.

Geoff Openshaw:
[3:35] No no definitely not the South definitely in Northern Virginia I feel like every time you’re on we argue about the fact that you live inside the Beltway in Alexandria God’s country and I live so far away.

Jared Gillins:
[3:48] I’ll confess it’s because Kelsey and I over the six years that we’ve been married and lived in this wonderful Ward we just have grown more and more embittered every time we make friends with somebody and that friend moves too,
dr. Kwan or wherever Centreville places that are more affordable like so we kind of have this.

Geoff Openshaw:
[4:07] I would just like the record to show though when we left the word it was not by choice we were gerrymandered out of that thing I mean eventually we move eventually we moved but the initial parting of ways in the ward we shared together.

Jared Gillins:
[4:18] You are just gerrymandered out of the ward you were gerrymandered out of the steak.

Geoff Openshaw:
[4:21] I was and I was bitter about it for a long time that was a I had to learn some lessons from that experience.

Jared Gillins:
[4:26] Thing is though if you look at the maps of before and after they actually kind of reverse gerrymandered is our Ward was much more of an odd shape before they realized the boundaries and now we’re pretty close to a square so.

Geoff Openshaw:
[4:38] You’re pretty close to a square and you also have like no affordable areas in your ward boundaries anymore and like I don’t know.

Jared Gillins:
[4:44] There are a couple of places that are semi affordable still.

Geoff Openshaw:
[4:48] So folks where I was living was on in this you know largely apartment driven neck of the woods not
low income or anything but just like it was an easy place for younger families to all be living and so we had a lot of those in our Ward they logged that off and instead they Incorporated most of Old Town Alexandria and all these Posh neighborhoods which are great if you have,
people who can afford to live there and I’m sure you still have some but I have wondered about the viability of award when they take away you know the obvious places for younger families to be moving in
to be a LifeStream.

Jared Gillins:
[5:21] Yeah that being said there are some areas in the world still that I knelt down that have some government assisted living areas as well.

Geoff Openshaw:
[5:31] I used to live right by that yes I know them I live right by those projects walked past them all the time.

Jared Gillins:
[5:37] Yeah so there still is a modicum of diversity in the ward.

Geoff Openshaw:
[5:40] Well well good I’m glad everyone is aware of this in-depth conversation we’re having about the word boundary situation in Northern Virginia.

Jared Gillins:
[5:48] Yes fix it.

Geoff Openshaw:
[5:49] We’re doing very well the church is true everywhere though folks Good Times.

Jared Gillins:
[5:54] Well let’s make maybe let’s then move to something that is more relevant to our listeners.

Geoff Openshaw:
[5:58] Well this is real I mean folks you’ve all been there you’ve been an award with the boundaries of change tell us about your experiences send us an email otherwise what should we move to this week so many things have happened I’m just going to go off with my top story this week everybody.
Now we sort of tease this we fell into some information about this a few weeks ago that the church is announcing one new handbook so for those unfamiliar there are currently two handbooks in the church they date from 20,
the most recent ones are from 2010 they’ve updated them online but there’s handbook one which is a handbook specifically for stake presidents and Bishops and.

[6:38] Other people related to them there’s handbook to for everybody else now if you are a,
lay member of the church you have access to handbook to in the Gospel Library app for example or if you look online or anything else right,
because of the wonderful,
Advent of the LDS account the church account they can grant and restrict access to various materials based on what you’re calling is on a database table the youth and so handbook one for example,
well they were physical copies before the digital one depending on your calling will also just show up in something like tools or LCR so that’s been restricted and there because of it being restricted it is always been a little bit,
mysterious people have wondered what is in handbook one the church has at times even I believe there was one time they prosecuted a website for hosting a PDF of it if I recall.

[7:31] Very much on the you know I mean the strict legal grounds of saying this is,
like this is our property you don’t have the right to distribute these materials period like end of story right I mean
then that goes in the weeds like technically the church is also the only one that owns the copyright on the Book of Mormon and you can’t just go print a copy of it yourself to and post that somewhere when have you so anyways handbook one is always had a bit of mystery around it
I’ve read through it I have access to him book one currently there’s nothing crazy in there but it does get into more of the,
the thick of it on things like disciplinary councils abusive situations how to,
and just Counseling in general and Link finances and then there’s all the fun stuff how it like dissuades vasectomies how it says that hypnotism for entertainment purposes is not good,
I believe because it is denying you of your agency just like you know getting drunk might for example,
there’s a lot of fun little tidbits in there the first time I read through it I was kind of cracking up at some of the stuff in the back,
I was like oh man they would not have approved of my high school grad Night Celebration that because we hypnotized like crazy.

Jared Gillins:
[8:32] Yeah we had one maybe that was that a thing of like the late 90s like was it just a fad.

Geoff Openshaw:
[8:37] Yeah I think hypnotists had a.

Jared Gillins:
[8:38] Parties to have hypnotist yeah.

Geoff Openshaw:
[8:40] They had a good way to came over there yeah so anyway so that’s handbook one that handbook to has a lot of the stuff you’ve all seen you know how do you how do you do ward council how did various organizations formally auxiliaries work what’s all the work we do those have been around for a while so,
the church has announced instead,
it’s going to combine them into one and it’s going to be available to everybody we first learned this a few weeks ago when the wonderful other Elder Peter M Johnson was down here in my steak,
conducting leadership training and he offhandedly just said by the way there’s going to be like just one handbook that’s going to come out in the quarter first quarter this year I was like well that’s news,
good to hear I don’t remember how it even came up but I thought that was interesting and then here we are about three weeks later and it’s official so the new handbook is officially called,
General handbook serving in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints it will be digital only which is smart.
Because both for one obviously we have the whole come follow me racism debacle that we’ve been following for a couple of weeks you know
that mess with the printed version and the church also stopped printing the other handbooks a while ago they sent out a letter
it’s a bishoprics and just said stop referencing this book and stop using it only use the digital one because we’re only going to update that from here on out so it would make sense that the new version just won’t be printed at all,
I completely understand what that.

Jared Gillins:
[9:58] Right.

Geoff Openshaw:
[9:59] So yeah I mean there’s a good stuff here I do find Elder christofferson quote interesting he says the new handbook is part of the ongoing restoration of the Gospel I mean I get it,
but I easily read a line like that and say the handbook is part of the ongoing restoration.

Jared Gillins:
[10:15] Okay so that I agree is kind of an odd statement but I think the rest of the statement is still like interesting so keep going keep no you go on.

Geoff Openshaw:
[10:25] Okay,
so this restoration has been and will continue to be a process of learning how to minister as Jesus would to a richly diverse world we pray this new handbook will help church leaders use their god-given gifts,
to continue to bless lives in their Ministry we know there is room in the church for everyone.

Jared Gillins:
[10:44] And that to me is like kind of the key line that makes me raise my eyebrow in in very sincere interest like what does that mean that that sounds a little cryptic but I mean he references are richly diverse world
so yeah so what is it what is he saying specifically when he says generally that we know there is room in this church for everyone.

Geoff Openshaw:
[11:05] And we don’t know exactly you know I wonder
the interesting thing too is they’ve said that they’re going to be updating a lot of the content roughly 80% of the content from the current handbooks is going to be incorporated into the new handbook Siamese off 20% all new stuff but even that 80% needs to be
reorganized in a different way and offhand actually only about nine chapters are have been done that way so I guess we’re going to get a digital handbook that has nine,
fresh chapters and then we’re just going to have the old content sitting there until they make their way through it.

Jared Gillins:
[11:36] One other thing I’m curious about and I know this is your word choice from the post that you put on the on the blog with the says some the nine chapters have been updated to reflect
the new tone and approach now are those official terms that there’s a new tone and approach from the handbook or is that something that you.

Geoff Openshaw:
[11:54] I would be more than happy to find this to make sure here but yes that’s actually I did not quote the XFL like it wasn’t a quotable term that is the actual,
terminology used in The Newsroom release the nine have been updated at this point to reflect the new tone and approach.

Jared Gillins:
[12:12] Okay so again that’s very interesting to me considering this idea of we’re approach we’re trying to consider
and minister to a richly diverse World we’re trying to make sure that there it’s clear that there’s room for everybody in the church and that there’s a new tone and approach to how we administer,
not Minister but administered the church about all of that is like making me want to know like what’s in here what’s different what’s new.

Geoff Openshaw:
[12:38] I will find out I believe it’s going to be work but two weeks away just about February 19th is when it’s going to happen and they’re going to also have a whole Newsroom article explaining some of the additions I also think it’s very interesting it’s going to be available to everyone I don’t think handbook one was I mean that crazy.
Out of bounds to start,
I understand the sensitivities of just not sharing it widely so I am curious where they’re going to draw the line I mean if this is the one handbook it’s going to unless they develop some special handbook that’s not called,
well they could get away with the saying here is General handbook serving in the church and they still develop some new thing that’s called like Bishop’s handbook.

Jared Gillins:
[13:15] Bright and I’ve seen some people speculating about that or or you know maybe this is handbook and then there are also here are several letters to Bishops or you know or you know.

Geoff Openshaw:
[13:26] We supplemental things yeah yeah so I’m kind of curious how they’re going to do that,
I’m not quite sure but it’ll be fun to see I think it’s good to have a new handbook fresh content even though it’s going to take them like two years to go through all the spots which is the honestly it’s very weird in this is also only going to be an English at first,
which Jerry correct me if I’m wrong but I take this to mean that like the English-speaking part of the church is going to be using different governing documents from the rest of the church then.

Jared Gillins:
[13:51] I guess 20% of it anyway if,
just end of it is still not really changing fundamentally but that is that is interesting and I wonder if they’ll still kind of distribute that English 1/2 all over the world just so that it’s there in case local leaders.

Geoff Openshaw:
[14:07] Well it would be like a like it’ll be like when preach my gospel came out it was only an English for a while and even in other language speaking missions that gave them English version that are like just to kind of work with this.

Jared Gillins:
[14:18] And I guess anybody could I mean it would have to be quote unquote distributed since it’s not paper I guess you know anybody could just
switch their app to English and download the English copy of it to see you know if they have that capability so yeah I guess that but that is interesting isn’t it that there will be a new tone and approach that hasn’t been broached in Portuguese.

Geoff Openshaw:
[14:37] And it makes me wonder what they will what would be change things like I mean they’re going to change the definition of apostasy in the English version one but not in the others you know stuff,
I don’t think that’s going to happen but I wonder if we’ll have any weird brakes,
squee in terms of what’s what guidance we receive in one document but not the other but we’ll find out in two weeks.

Jared Gillins:
[14:58] So along those lines speaking of policy is one of the Hot Topic policies that’s been popping up in the news,
unfortunately multiple times over the last few weeks is the subject of abuse and what to do when abuse is reported to,
a bishop in the setting of confession and setting of trying to reconcile sins and work Council
to a better life and so I am sure I’m not up on every single one of my recent twin episodes but I’m sure a few weeks ago you guys talked about the woman who is suing the church because her husband confessed abuse to the bishop and the bishop
reported him to authorities so that’s a that’s a case where good Bishop understands,
this is horrible it needs to stop and that the authorities need to know this and he reports in the news this week there was a story,
and this is a website that I have was not familiar with before preparing for this episode but there’s a website called Truth and transparency.

[16:02] And they published an article where they talked about a man who recently was,
convicted of abuse of his two young daughters over the course of several years
and though one of the tragic parts of the story that the entire thing is horribly tragic but one of the tragic Parts is that back in 2010 or 2011 he actually did confess this to a bishop,
and that according to sources and of course I try to take these things with a grain of salt because you know there’s always multiple sides to a story but according to sources,
the bishop not only didn’t turn him in but that supposedly received instruction,
from higher up not to turn the him in because he lived in Arizona and local Arizona laws don’t require clergy to report,
such abuses to the law and again supposedly as far as this article reported the policy of the church is to comply with local laws.

[16:59] So I don’t know so going back to our discussion of like a new handbook are we going to see a much firmer approach to reporting abuse I would,
I will go to editorialize and say I hope so I don’t think there’s ever an excuse regardless of what the local laws in Arizona or anywhere else are there’s never an excuse to leave,
young people old people any people in a horribly dangerous situation for the sake of hey we’re trying to help this guy reconcile and.
Anyway I don’t know I think that I would love to see the church to take a no tolerance approach to this and say it’ll always always report abuse to the law because there are people who safety we are concerned with.

Geoff Openshaw:
[17:44] Yeah I’m with you too I mean II it frustrates me that the Baseline seems to be basically like just comply with like the minimum requirements in the state you’re in versus just guys report the abuse.

Jared Gillins:
[17:55] And again and so and they,
in that article they made it clear that the church spokesman did not comment specifically on this case nor did the law firm that represents the church in such cases or gives legal advice to Bishops they
specifically comment so we’re getting it from one side that that’s the,
legal advice that was given but that’s why I hope that’s not true I hope that there’s more to the story and that they’re that part of it is incorrect because I just yeah I can’t imagine that,
whatever be a good idea to anybody to give that kind of advice to oh yeah just just just let him let him let him keep going let him work it out.

Geoff Openshaw:
[18:32] Yeah amen.

Jared Gillins:
[18:34] Anyway so sorry to go to go straight to that down or maybe we need to pick things up.

Geoff Openshaw:
[18:37] Don’t be don’t be don’t be sorry we save all the fluff for the end that’s where the fun is,
here’s a bit of Interest according to a study a new poll okay this poll was commissioned by the Salt Lake Tribune,
um about another issue we’ve talked about a lot lately especially in light of the big hundred billion dollar elephant in the room is that a majority of utahans want to require churches to disclose their finances,
asterisk however.
A minority about a third of self-proclaimed self-identified active Latter-Day Saints share that view so it’s very interesting to me just because of the numbers of Utah Utah is roughly two-thirds LDS I think at this point you know that’s not to say who’s active who’s not.
That would mean that of that subset of 60 odd percent of Utah roughly we say half is typically active or so which would mean.
30-something percent of Utah is active Latter-Day Saint but they’re saying that basically means a smaller portion,
of that subgroup is actually even one even wants that to be disclosed so it’s a understandable I think we’re very sensitive about this I don’t think I made sense right there either but I think um.

Jared Gillins:
[19:53] I was following.

Geoff Openshaw:
[19:54] Okay but you know I’m saying like it’s a minority of the minority of that that even want the church to disclose finances I think,
kg and a bit touchy about that but the poles pretty interesting I mean you’ve got you a 54% of Utah and support that idea of having tax-exempt religious organizations publicly report their finances,
most tax-exempt organizations do need to publicly report finances as part of the deal but churches have always had
a little separate carve out for them because of the intrinsic value they give to the community is really the way the government’s always looked at the church is contribute in a lot of intangible ways,
and it would be too burdensome to force them to also disclose their finances even if they get a tax break at a federal level so,
I think that’s interesting and I am curious why self-proclaimed active Latter Day Saints are just not into the idea I mean why.

Jared Gillins:
[20:47] Yeah I mean I think like you said there’s this cage Enos insensitivity that,
and I think it also relates to another thing that’s been buzzing around at this we’ve been our leaders have been talking a lot about this idea of religious freedom and I think a lot of people when they hear
hey the church should be more transparent and open about their finances that one of the place that a lot of conservative members Minds go to is oh no does that mean more government control more government oversight of church finances and we don’t want that
you know so I think I understand to me that’s,
the point of view that I can kind of wrap my head around the other side of it though is like I don’t know I really I think that as a general rule,
more transparency is a good thing like I think it’s good for us to know hey this is how we’re using tithing dollars this is how church finances work this is how we make decisions and we do get a little bit of that.

[21:40] Especially on the ward level it many Bishops are very open about the budgeting process at least in words that I’ve been in,
but I don’t know I would I would love I for one would love to see a little bit more transparency to understand a little bit more this is how we prayerfully allocate,
sacred sacred donated funds and this is how we are accountable you know and we’re we don’t even have a name you know I’m sure you remember it wasn’t that long ago that in general conference would always get a report from the auditor who would,
you know affirm that the church books were all in order and everything looked good and we haven’t had that for a few years now and I kind of missed that I liked hearing at least that small bit of.

[22:22] Reporting accountability to the members of the church to say hey we are doing all right not to say I like that reassurance.

Geoff Openshaw:
[22:32] It’s funny that the The Whistleblower thing came out in one of its only been like three conferences tops,
so they stopped doing all that stuff and stop doing the statistical report at the same time which button was bums me out I don’t know I mean it’s fun to find it online at me.

[22:48] I like to hear about it I do think that maybe.
I mean I’m guessing a lot of the reason that like very active Latter Day Saints are not in favor of this as you know they’re the ones most likely to be full tithe payers I,
that means they’re the most likely to be trusting and that’s where the interesting line shows up because I think you and I are active in the church I think we trust Church leadership to be responsible with
the Lord’s money you know for our part that we’ve donated and for whatever other monies we have you know wherever they come from but,
I think there’s another level where people just you know don’t you know you don’t question the brother and we talked about we talked about inerrancy last week on the show you don’t question these things they have it under control why would you question it so of course I don’t want more transparency in that regard and,
also on the other side the other part of that is I think the very active LDS Community was,
not as affected by the whole whistleblower story I think a lot of people in those situations just said,
yeah of course we got a bunch of money great like we’ve done a good job with our money and we have a lot of it,
good deal then it seemed he didn’t see any trouble there even though the issue wasn’t whether or not we have money it was more about how we went about obtaining it and spending it whether we violated tax law to get there but I could see that being.
Sort of why active Latter Day Saints don’t want to disclose just they just feel like everything is good and why Rock the Boat.

Jared Gillins:
[24:07] Right but then again I don’t know I like I said I think as a general rule I just always think I remember somebody telling me,
you know the old adage the best disinfectant is sunlight
meaning that you know if things are open in the air that things are less likely to get rotten and again and I am a faithful believing member I’m active I do have a level of trust in our leadership and you know and also the belief that the Lord is at the wheel on a higher level
but that does not preclude bad things happening or as we’re warned in Doctrine and Covenants hundred Twenty-One write that there are
people who do rexxar size unrighteous dominion and that you know if the Lord felt strongly enough about that to reveal to Joseph Smith,
by Revelation that this is something to look out for I think it’s something that we have to continue to look out for and not to make the assumption that everyone at every level,
leadership in the church is beyond reproach as far as corruption or misuse of funds or anything like that may go so I think having more transparency my argument again would be that
in the interest of what we’ve learned from Doctor covenants 121 we can help prevent that sort of unrighteous Dominion by saying hey look this is what’s happening
we are all aware of it and if anything bad does happen we’re much quicker to be able to point it out and correct it.

Geoff Openshaw:
[25:28] There you go Amen brother.

Jared Gillins:
[25:31] Amen.

Geoff Openshaw:
[25:32] I’m going to throw another,
quick one that should hear this mostly I’m asking the twin the twin Nation for some help I don’t understand Dan Peterson’s Blog on patheos,
I just don’t understand what he gets out half the time if you don’t know Daniel Peterson he is a famed Latter-Day Saint apologist he’s been deep in Mormon studies his whole career I believe I don’t know if he’s does he still teach at BYU he has taught at BYU.

Jared Gillins:
[26:01] I’m not sure if he’s still in fact.

Geoff Openshaw:
[26:02] I don’t know if he’s still a religion Professor there or not,
anyway he’s a notable name in the field paseos a great site on for religious blogging but I don’t understand,
his column like what is the here is one recently this past week called Martin Harris on the witness stand in Lyons New York and he’s,
he just like it’s like a transcript of what happened with.

Jared Gillins:
[26:30] It’s not even a full transcript apparently according to the account the transcript was torn up and thrown out by the judge so we are getting Lucy Max Smith’s
secondhand relating of the transcript of what happened in court and of what Martin Harris reportedly testified from the stand so.

Geoff Openshaw:
[26:48] I think the main thing is that Daniel Peterson has this knack for not providing any context for what he’s what case is he laying out he’ll just say here’s some notes from this and then just have some quotes and then move on and I’m like where did huh.

Jared Gillins:
[27:00] But what’s interesting about that is then you contrast that with like his work at Book of Mormon Central and obviously he’s not writing everything at Book of Mormon Central but he’s the man behind the site who’s kind of running things and that
and you can you know make your arguments about article by article about you know how,
relevant or trust her or whatever you know the there I think they’re not all things on Bookworm Central are created equal but still at least I’ll have context they all have make a clear argument they all have a didactic purpose that’s discernible
whereas yeah patheos,
10 Peters past past Peterson’s patheos I it’s not as clear so why the disparity between the clarity and purpose at Book of Mormon Central and the confusion and aimlessness of his patheos blog.

Geoff Openshaw:
[27:47] Yeah yeah.

Jared Gillins:
[27:48] Inquiring minds want to know.

Geoff Openshaw:
[27:51] Another couple of things here you know Al Caraway Fox the tattooed Mormon someone.

Jared Gillins:
[27:55] She’s not just a tattooed Mormon according to her book.

Geoff Openshaw:
[27:59] Well I would hope not and I’ve spoken about this before I think it’s.
She has an interesting story because I think she can teach us a lot about the way we judge people based on her experience coming into the church and I was thinking the same time it’s incredibly its,
damming for us that like we’ve made it like this novelty of oh it’s this tattooed Mormon shift something valuable to say but she has tattoos you know,
so I think she’s done a lot of good anyway she spoke to hundreds of people at BYU hundreds of them.

Jared Gillins:
[28:32] Hey hey according to the article they had to move the event from the Assembly Hall at the jsb The Joe Smith building all the way over to the Wilk so that she could it was the Varsity Theater was it so they or wherever.

Geoff Openshaw:
[28:45] The Ballroom in the ballroom yeah.

Jared Gillins:
[28:46] In the ballroom so that she could because there was too many there are too many people to fit in the original locations so hey it went from hundreds to almost thousands 6x.

Geoff Openshaw:
[28:55] Sixteen hundred people showed up to listen to Al I don’t know what she talked about I’m sure it was just good things like don’t feel bad about yourself and like you know don’t be lonely and be happy but I want to,
we’re just going to juxtapose this with the fact that one Emeritus Latter-Day Saint General Authority Larry Echo Hawk also a former member of the Obama Administration spoke at the 157th Bear River Massacre Memorial near Preston Idaho,
and only about 500 people showed up you guys I’m not dissing Al Carraway.
But here you have Larry Echo Hawk and admittedly a less convenient location pulling in a third of the people.

Jared Gillins:
[29:38] I do wonder what the constraints of that location where like you said it was probably it was certainly well knowing Preston Idaho it’s a bit remote but not only that but I wonder based on,
how much room there was for people to stand how good the speaker sound system was or if you even had one did you just have to speak really loudly you know what I mean it might not have been conducive to it
crowd of 1600 or.

Geoff Openshaw:
[30:03] Okay listen here apologist it’s fine,
I am just condemning the people for loving who is Al Carro has she been set apart or ordained as anything,
no no no Larry Echo Hawk formerly ran the Bureau of Indian Affairs and was a general Authority I feel like he is a more worthy speaker.

Jared Gillins:
[30:29] I’m not disagreeing with you and especially since he was speaking on the anniversary of a terrible Native American Massacre perpetrated by our federal government and you know in something that’s,
yeah Jason if not a part of Latter Day Saint history you know it definitely feels like a more momentous and somber and important occasion for people to pay attention to.

Geoff Openshaw:
[30:49] Yeah yeah.

Jared Gillins:
[30:50] I’m going to out us both here both of us before we started recording we’re confessing that we don’t know much about the Bear River Massacre.

Geoff Openshaw:
[30:58] You’re showing the cards Church.

Jared Gillins:
[31:00] My point is though that I think we should not only should you and I know about this but probably all of us should so maybe more people should be accommodated and made available to attend things like what other our former.

Geoff Openshaw:
[31:15] I mean it would probably it would probably be a good thing sure right sure fine.

Jared Gillins:
[31:21] Or did we would just want to have a diatribe against al Carraway and how she’s inferior to Larry Echo Hawk.

Geoff Openshaw:
[31:27] Well I’m ethic that’s just that’s just axiomatic of course.

Jared Gillins:
[31:30] We love you out we love your tattoos we love that you’re in the church.

Geoff Openshaw:
[31:33] We love all of the tattoos just every every single one of the tattoos that have brought you to us.
It’s no love for Larry.

Jared Gillins:
[31:44] I love Larry I think he’s great he’s a great speaker I’ve really enjoyed things he has to say and I think he did some important work in the Obama Administration so.
Speaking of speaking of being able to accommodate people at at occasions where there are speakers.
Let’s talk about nursing moms at the BYU women’s,
this has also been sort of a fiery Topic at least for the last couple days as I have witnessed it on the Twitter’s people are all Twitter about this topic see what I did there so apparently BYU has announced that,
nursing mothers and their babies cannot be accommodated at the upcoming Women’s Conference that is held annually at BYU,
and a lot of people understandably are up in arms there’s a lot of people are talking about this as a discriminatory policy which I can totally see I can understand that point of view.

Geoff Openshaw:
[32:39] This isn’t is this new though I’m is this a new rule.

Jared Gillins:
[32:43] It is relatively new so there’s always been,
a policy against bringing children like it has always been clear that children are not to can’t be accommodated at which is understandable you know Women’s Conference is for sitting down and listening to speakers and when you have like a toddler or five or six-year-old,
that’s not a person who’s going to be do well in that environment so that’s fair no children involved or allowed but that the to specify
to get it down the ingredients specify that nursing babies who are being nursed can’t be accommodated that’s new that that’s a new level of specificity that didn’t exist before,
so I have some thoughts but what are your thoughts Jeff is this is this discriminatory is.

Geoff Openshaw:
[33:29] Well this is exactly the kind of thing that I the reactionary side of me wants to jump out and be like this is messed up man,
what is this like are we all about families or not it’s a nursing baby it’s not some kid who’s going to run around and cause trouble it’s a nursing child and you are a mother and the church preaches that,
the being a mother is the most sacred thing you can do you are this vessel for life,
and you should embrace that and how dare we tear that down at some Women’s Conference because kids are bad at the same time I understand I’ve,
you know I that’s my good impulse but I understand at the same time that it’s complicated bringing kids there and it’s complicated for those attending to deal with other children being around.

Jared Gillins:
[34:15] Yeah and I when I first read about it is I had the same reaction as you know is like what this doesn’t make sense for a family-oriented church we want young mothers to be at events like this because they need support and love just like everyone else does and maybe it’s difficult maybe they’re going through
postpartum depression or whatever else like why would we prevent women with the nursing babies from coming here but as I read through a lot of similar responses but I also read cell responses,
women especially the most of these responses I saw came from women that they were taking a more practical view of it I are are not practical I don’t want to dismiss the other
the event is not practical but I guess a legit from a logistical standpoint they’re saying it’s getting it’s such a popular conference and it’s so,
highly and well-attended that it’s becoming less and less conducive to a place where Not only would you have I mean it’s not the idea that we don’t want you sitting in the audience nursing a baby if the I think the idea is,
you’ve got this baby it’s going to need to be changed it’s going to need to be fed it’s going to be need to have you taken somewhere to cry when it needs to cry etcetera and that,
it’s just logistically much more challenging than it used to be to accommodate that,
and you know one person pointed out you know they actually convert all of the public restrooms on campus campus all of the men’s restroom for that week or for what however many days the conference takes place all the male restrooms are converted to be women’s restrooms.

Geoff Openshaw:
[35:41] Okay Define that was that mean to take out all the urinals.

Jared Gillins:
[35:43] No they just said they just put a sign on the door and say hey for the next three days this is a women’s.

Geoff Openshaw:
[35:49] Oh sure gender-neutral everything this country used to be great.

Jared Gillins:
[35:54] Come on now the point the point was that they just need the Stalls they need this dolls because there’s that many women
and you know and we now know on any given day it was so funny we’re was I recently oh I was we were up in New York a couple weekends ago and we went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art and we stopped to take a bathroom break and,
Kelsey my wife stood in line to get into the women’s bathroom at the Met and there wasn’t like a big event or anything when I was just a normal day at the Met,
today and so she gets in line to go use the bathroom and I walk straight into the men’s bathroom,
do my business wash my hands come out and she hadn’t she had almost gotten to the actual door of the restroom by the time I was finished.

Geoff Openshaw:
[36:38] Oh yeah yeah.

Jared Gillins:
[36:39] So I think the idea is you know on a good day at BYU there’s a line for women to use the restroom at Women’s Conference there’s a line
to use men and women’s restrooms even though they’ve doubled it more or less double the capacity so again I see so some people are arguing this isn’t the discriminatory this isn’t intended to punish or exclude any class of women or mothers
but it’s more of a hey we just don’t know how we’re going to accommodate and make sure we have a safe and healthy space for babies of this age.

Geoff Openshaw:
[37:09] It does the article does go on to explain though that many this is anecdotal but many women said as far as recently as 2010 ish,
they remember going to the conference and taking their children like nursing children and not have any issue with it Carrie Jenkins a BYU spokesperson said that,
the issue is that a sporting events I do is in the Marriott Center a lot of time that it is sporting event you got kids it’s like okay it’s loud kids can wiggle you know it’s a sporting event but here everyone is expected to sit quietly,
listen and not have children ruining the spirit.

Jared Gillins:
[37:41] Ruining the spirit yeah I mean and that’s that is something to consider idea another perspective I saw was that somebody said well if it’s getting too crowded to accommodate why don’t you limit
the attendance and to say okay well if it’s if we can’t even have a baby,
have a place for it to change its diaper when it needs it let’s just cut down the attendance and it allowed fewer attendees and again the the other side that came back to that was well they already do that there’s already a limited number of tickets that they hand out so do you limit it more so that we can have,
babies there or do we limit it less so we can have more women they’re just not women who have the babies and so I mean there’s going to be trade-offs either way and I do sympathize with nursing mother died serving size is all mothers
I think they have their work cut out for them in no matter what the circumstance is so I can understand why this would be a really hard,
announcement to receive if especially if you were looking forward to some sort of camaraderie I have
an aunt and she and her daughters every year go together to Women’s Conference
and for several those years some of those cousins had little babies that they were nursing and so I could see that being a really big blow to them and yeah I would hate to tell tell any woman like sorry
not this year you can’t come messed up man.

Geoff Openshaw:
[38:58] We’re okay I’m back where we started this is messed up need to change this.

Jared Gillins:
[39:01] Yeah it’s a complicated messed up but yeah it’s difficult.

Geoff Openshaw:
[39:08] Okay quick mention here that just came out so we know that missionaries,
sometimes were pulled from countries temporarily sometimes permanently unfortunately,
for various reasons I feel like the most of the time it’s due to civil or political unrest or natural disaster but oftentimes we see like a Bolivia we saw just within the past four months or so,
because of major unrest their political issues when the Morales regime fell or Naval Morales could not clinch his dubiously,
gained fourth term in office but,
the North American missionaries were pulled out for their own safety of course we’ve seen restrictions in Russia as well 10 to xhosa tambien right there just threw that in there don’t be it so.

[39:55] Now in Liberia the West African nation situated there right there on the Gulf of Guinea right between Cote ivoire and Sierra Leone they’re not pulling all of the missionaries from the country however
the reasons here are economic because of a deteriorating economic situation in the country and a lack of resources like supplies,
sundry like the stuff you need they are,
just sitting out the field a little bit so for example over about the next week 23 young missionaries I say so this their specific this means young missionaries not in a senior couples
that are sort of nearing the end of their missions are just going to be sent home early they’ve had eight other missionaries,
preparing to come home who are just going to be temporarily reassigned to another mission so that leaves 99 missionaries in they’ll Liberia Monrovia mission who have,
adequate supplies moving forward I know what issue library has had a major fuel,
shortage like the fuel reserves in the country are apparently depleted or were stolen or something along those lines so there are issues there it’s,
I’m not celebrating this by any means but it is an interesting case in that,
you don’t usually see it’s this like hey there aren’t the economic resources available in the country and I know support this certain number of missionaries so we’re going to reduce the number to a supportable level until things calm down and we’ll bring it back up.

Jared Gillins:
[41:15] I wonder to Eminem sure this has been considered at higher levels but I was wondering about
if the church has also at the same time they’re reducing missionaries to you know do a realistic number whether that’s to reduce the burden on infrastructure or whether that’s just too
make sure that the all of the machines we have can be provided for for their needs but I Has there also,
been efforts from the church humanitarian aid department to help alleviate the situation there I’m guessing yes.

Geoff Openshaw:
[41:48] See anything but I’m sure yes.

Jared Gillins:
[41:50] Yeah so I wonder I a kind of just wonder how those things balance out and I wonder if maybe part that’s part of how a decision like this is bad maybe people at the humanitarian Aid welfare
inside of the church you know kind of report back and say hey
it’s really bad and it’s going to be a while before it gets better and then the mission Department says well if that’s the case then maybe we should pull some people out I don’t know I’m sure there’s a lot of
interlocking gears here that a lot of interesting things that go on behind the scenes that we never hear about.

Geoff Openshaw:
[42:16] Now one thing did come to mind for Timmy we wrote this article on our website,
I thought about the Doctrine and Covenants when there was the old mandate to you know Thou shalt not take no purse nor scrip,
now I know that was a different era and that was Northeastern United States but it is interesting to me that we’re sort of,
that’s not a thing anymore we’re not saying like well missionaries have some faith and you will and the people will care for you right we just don’t do that anymore I guess just as know if the situation is not such that our missionaries can be comfortable and safe we’re just going to,
get him out of there for a bit with that be that so basically where is their faith all of you.

Jared Gillins:
[42:54] It’s just a testament to as things change as the situation the world changes sometimes the Lord changes the way he has us work with the world so.

Geoff Openshaw:
[43:02] I don’t know man I’m slowly going to become one of those people who thinks that Brigham wasn’t the proper successor to Joseph this is clearly what’s happening.

Jared Gillins:
[43:08] Hey hey people heard him speak in Joseph’s Voice who are you to question his authority.

Geoff Openshaw:
[43:16] Sidney Rigdon.

Jared Gillins:
[43:18] You’re on your ass or you are you going to be a become a bigger tonight perhaps.

Geoff Openshaw:
[43:23] Who doesn’t love to bicker tonight’s.

Jared Gillins:
[43:25] I think they’re super interesting we could talk we hit we should have an episode about the picture night so we can all like know them better know our neighbors better anyway.

Geoff Openshaw:
[43:33] And by neighbors we mean people that are largely in Pittsburgh but yes Neighbors.

Jared Gillins:
[43:36] It’s not too far from me from you maybe it’s kind of fire down where you are.

Geoff Openshaw:
[43:41] It’s so far down where I am you know down here in the South but for you.

Jared Gillins:
[43:44] Yes exactly alright Jeff I’m really tired of dancing around this issue I think we really need to address the hard-hitting and Central news of Normandin Mormon dumb that happened in the last week,
and that is the fact that Mitt Romney somehow someway smuggled a bottle of BYU Creamery chocolate milk onto the senate floor,
during the impeachment trial there are so many questions,
so so for those of you who are not aware there is a decades-old if not centuries old rule in the Senate that during such proceedings the only beverage is allowed,
our water and,
and a lot of senators have been complaining because you know these things go on for a long time that means they can’t drink coffee that means they can’t drink Coke or whatever they use to keep their energy up and so yeah these all these people have been forced to drink
either water or milk
and so Romney was potent photographed with a bottle of BYU Creamery chocolate milk and he got in trouble because it was in a bottle and apparently no bottles are allowed,
so he stepped out to avoid controversy he stepped out to the cloakroom poured his bottle of milk into a glass and returned to the room where apparently it was allowed it because chocolate milk is considered milk under the Senate rules.

Geoff Openshaw:
[45:05] I gotta tell you this cloakroom they’ve had during the impeachment like a speakeasy I’ve read so much about the quote the cloakroom during the impeachment there also.

Jared Gillins:
[45:09] There’s a there’s a false wall back there and there’s like a bootlegger guy.

Geoff Openshaw:
[45:16] All just going back there and check their phones and drink some stuff it’s pretty funny.

Jared Gillins:
[45:20] They’re pulling out there a little ankle flask to you know the boot flask whatever so,
so I my main question II think it’s delightful if I were him I’d want to Glass chocolate milk too but my big question is how did he get BYU Creamery chocolate milk,
in Washington DC,
do they sell it at the bar low Center is it something that one of his aides like flew over on a non-stop flight in a chest filled with dry ice so they stay fresh like I just don’t understand where this bottle of milk came from and how it was still good.

Geoff Openshaw:
[45:53] I don’t know either that’s the main thing I was wondering to how weird.
The Barlow Center is the only way I can think of a quick Google search of BYU Creamery Barlow Center yields nothing in fact you know how Google,
when you do search results it has missing at or must include all these results are missing Creamery you know so like the Mustang if I must include Creamery.
It doesn’t give me anything it gives me the Wikipedia article for list of BYU buildings so I don’t know how this is happening.

Jared Gillins:
[46:22] This is the most important call for participation from our listeners that I think has ever gone out on the show those of you who attended or are currently attending the Barlow Center can you confirm or,
deny by any certain means that BYU Creamery products are available at the Bartlett Center we need to know.

Geoff Openshaw:
[46:42] Well even even McKay coppins doesn’t know he tweeted about it some people said they got smuggled in through Washington seminar which could have you know been I don’t know.

Jared Gillins:
[46:52] I have but who took milk across the United States on Washington seminar.

Geoff Openshaw:
[46:57] I don’t know.

Jared Gillins:
[46:58] Yeah it boggles me and that.

Geoff Openshaw:
[47:00] I’m it has the money maybe from his private coffers he’s paying the the creamery to cold pack a bunch of stuff.
And send it to DC maybe he’s just paying out of pocket for a special shipment for.

Jared Gillins:
[47:14] His own private bootleg.

Geoff Openshaw:
[47:16] I appreciate that Mitt Romney unless this is just pandering to his own constituents but I appreciate that Mitt Romney.
Loves BYU chocolate milk which is very good BYU’s Creamery chocolate milk is it’s not just like a nice thing to have because you’re because it’s there and promo it’s legit good.
Yeah yeah yeah so I like to think that despite his seems most of his life not being in Utah he might be a senator from Utah now but he spent more of his adult life in the east coast but that the BYU Creamery chocolate milk has been a,
special love for him and and sort of hinted to that she said it’s sort of his vice so he’s clearly loved it since they’ve got married way back in the day when he was a student there.

Jared Gillins:
[47:56] Well I think the bar has been raised and a standard now is expected of senators from Idaho I would like to see,
you match Mitt Romney’s Devotion to his constituents I would like to see Idaho Senators smuggle in Reed’s Dairy chocolate milk,
to the senate floor and those of you who know are from or are familiar with Idaho Falls and its surrounding areas you know what I’m talking about Reed’s Dairy chocolate milk.

Geoff Openshaw:
[48:24] I have no idea what you’re talking about that sounds made up what does Idaho Falls where what is that.

Jared Gillins:
[48:27] This was a what’s the what’s the what’s the what’s the podcast equivalent of a subtweet that’s what I just did.

Geoff Openshaw:
[48:35] I don’t know but I’m good for it.

Jared Gillins:
[48:38] All I know is when I said Reed’s Dairy there were probably at least a dozen of your listeners who pumped their fists in the air and said yes yes.

Geoff Openshaw:
[48:46] It’s fair it’s like the dairy godmother out here.

Jared Gillins:
[48:49] Right exactly except better sorry Dairy go out of mother I love you but Reed’s Dairy so good so good.

Geoff Openshaw:
[48:56] I want to give a special shout-out to spelunkers in front Royals through talking about Virginia everybody if you want some good custard go out there.

Jared Gillins:
[49:03] Yeah there you go.

Geoff Openshaw:
[49:05] Conflict of interest.
Yam it needs to come on the show and tell us what’s going up I want so it’s we’re winding down here Jarrod I thought we could have an interesting discussion hopefully about the Super Bowl more specifically the halftime show now,
many people watched it we like the football I think a lot of times is Latter-Day Saints especially people who have faith and our BYU fans of course you know those with true testimonies and,
if you watch the show last night famously Shakira and Jennifer Lopez performed together,
most of the media covering its that it was a great Super Bowl halftime show because these can be divisive you know not just because of the Janet Jackson Justin Timberlake stuff for 15 years ago but sometimes the shows are just lame.

[49:49] That no-good so this everyone said this was solid great stuff this is the media coverage however and some,
Latter-Day Saint Christian circles I’ve seen an interesting backlash here a day later about the halftime show in that,
Shakira and specifically JLo,
we’re two perhaps overtly sexual or suggestive in there dancing us all a lot of a lot of pieces of like oh man I took my kids out of the room you know I don’t want my daughters thinking of them as role models,
and I appreciate different perspectives here because some could say hey these are you know strong women being strong women doing their craft and that’s an awesome thing,
so I’ve seen a lot of this and it’s I guess I don’t know if I’ve fallen spiritually Jared and that,
if I see halftime show like that I just feel like yeah okay well they’re just that Shakira Shakira saying you know that’s what I expect from the Shakira brand so.

Jared Gillins:
[50:45] Her hips don’t lie after all.

Geoff Openshaw:
[50:46] They don’t they don’t,
so I think much about it but I know the one thing I did think of though is I wondered I don’t think that they were necessarily the two of them representing all of Latino culture per se,
but I do think that you know a lot of dance Traditions that we have.
We might think of them as sexual in nature but they’re not necessarily sexual in nature in the land of their derivation.

Jared Gillins:
[51:11] Right so is this a it’s just a problem of ethnocentrism t or yeah.

Geoff Openshaw:
[51:15] It could be I mean heck we even look back at like what was even appropriate in the United States and that’s not to say we haven’t just fallen and I mean you know Elvis couldn’t be on television in the 50s because the way he moved.

Jared Gillins:
[51:24] Barbara Eden’s belly button couldn’t make an appearance on I Dream of Jeannie so yeah.

Geoff Openshaw:
[51:28] Yeah so stuff like that was
it was totally taboo and perhaps that was the better time and we should be taboo about those things I’m not sure but it’s important to remember that a lot of these dances I mean there are a lot of,
especially in Africa I hate to paint with a broad brush Africa per se right
in a lot of regions in Africa a lot of the cultural are there’s women who the four of dancing they have stuff that would
are closely on the side of just do no good booty shaking torquing things along those lines right and we think of twerking we think of Miley Cyrus making a fool of herself a number of years ago.
That could be considered perfectly normal in another country,
so I just that’s the one I guess one of the main things I thought about I know that they’re not there like representing the culture of Latin America and so no one should question any of it I think it’s all kind of wrapped up.

Jared Gillins:
[52:17] Well I think there’s.

Geoff Openshaw:
[52:18] There’s a lot of components there that are on display.

Jared Gillins:
[52:20] Yeah and I think that’s a really important perspective to keep again this idea of like there are different cultures who don’t,
Define or objectify sexuality or sexual sexually suggestive what we would think of as students especially subjective motions the same way that we would think another side of it too is that and,
I think when we cry foul when we see things like that when we,
by our voice and actions declare something to be scandalous we make it more scandalous you know it’s sort of a,
you know that scientific principle that by observing event we by nature of just by the,
motion the action of observing we change we change the event and I think that’s what’s happening here is that people are saying oh my gosh this is scandalous isn’t this is inappropriate and this is terrible and when you
draw such negative attention in such a way to it you make it more so than it was already,
and I see this a lot of this is something I think that’s kind of endemic to social media is that people like to draw attention to things that upset them which is always confused me like if you don’t like it why are you pointing it out to people and giving it more,

Geoff Openshaw:
[53:35] Because the impeachment stuff upsets me Jared okay I see what you’re doing.

Jared Gillins:
[53:39] This goes this goes well this goes well before the tribe Administration yeah I just yeah so yeah I just I think that if if you don’t like what happened at the,
Super Bowl halftime show maybe that’s a good conversation to have with your children or your family or your spouse or whatever but to boldly declare for one and all to hear and read,
you know we this is terrible it’s funny because Kelsey and I we didn’t watch the Superbowl right I didn’t have a I’ll watch it if there’s a team that I’m
I feel like I have some investment in and there wasn’t this time around so we didn’t watch but we I was I had read so much online about all these reactions and then I told Kelsey about and she said oh
let’s watch it we wouldn’t have even watched this show if people hadn’t like drawing so much attention to it and we ended up watching it,
you know and be holding this thing that was declared to be so scandalous which we otherwise would have been blissfully unaware of so I don’t know.

Geoff Openshaw:
[54:31] Exactly I mean people claimed the Jailer was like pole dancing because there was a pole I could see that being the case but nothing I saw there was the definition of pole dancing in the.

Jared Gillins:
[54:40] No but that’s it.

Geoff Openshaw:
[54:42] First sense.

Jared Gillins:
[54:42] No and that’s exactly like people were because the poll came out and she slid down it,
what they thought was a suggestive way they were making comparisons to stripping and exotic dancing and they even though you know people talking about the dressing like prostitutes Etc I for one
I think it’s pretty clear that JLo is not a prostitute or a stripper she has declared on the record many times over that her Love Don’t Cost a Thing.
And I think we should take her at her word.

Geoff Openshaw:
[55:15] Yeah if sure I have no follow up on that amen amen we could probably and the show there.

Jared Gillins:
[55:21] Is there anything else we need to talk about.

Geoff Openshaw:
[55:28] Trust in JLo everyone I would want to call direction– real quick to an article by our buddy Jeff borders put up on the show
we won’t devote time to it this week but he’s a convert and he has a call at his column called the convert files and chronicling the sort of his thoughts from his time in our church,
with a perspective of a convert who converted like in his late teens,
but this is an interesting one that actually got a lot of places are we missing great praise music so he grew up in a more Evangelical,
household and praise music something we don’t throw around much as Latter-Day Saints was very much a thing and so he’s just saying like what’s the deal with like praise music like should we try to embrace some aspect of this is there anything wrong with us,
embracing that as Latter-day Saints.

Jared Gillins:
[56:14] Eddie’s is sure to point out that he’s not advocating for like
guitars and basses and drums and sacrament meeting he says he understands there’s a time and a place but he kind of yeah I bet he’s like yeah they may be outside of that that it would there needs to be some more stirring praise type Style music and.

Geoff Openshaw:
[56:29] I mean I hear some stuff that’s you know I’ve you know like accidentally turn on Christian radio or something and it’s fine I hear some of the songs that are no different than some of this half the stuff in here on the efy soundtrack nowadays.

Jared Gillins:
[56:42] That’s exactly what I thought as I was reading his article my main thought was I think the closest thing we have to what he’s talking about is efy music but I haven’t I haven’t listened to an EFI soundtrack since since I was a neophyte counselor.

Geoff Openshaw:
[56:54] Look and live.

Jared Gillins:
[56:56] Yeah so I think the last soundtrack I listened to in its entirety was in 2002 which is we believe and even then I feel like the music was getting more tame and less poppy so I don’t know I don’t know if.

Geoff Openshaw:
[57:08] It’s like all it’s like all EDM now it’s crazy.

Jared Gillins:
[57:11] It’s all Skrillex inspired.

Geoff Openshaw:
[57:14] They’ve got I forgot I’m blanking on his name it’s all Cascade Cascade brings us the efy.

Jared Gillins:
[57:20] It’s all M LMFAO.

Geoff Openshaw:
[57:24] You have no idea how much I hate LMFAO.

Jared Gillins:
[57:26] I I probably have an idea.

Geoff Openshaw:
[57:28] It’s such a thing that my brother had the DJ play at my wedding.

Jared Gillins:
[57:32] Oh that’s awful that’s your day.

Geoff Openshaw:
[57:35] Karen excited playing he looked over at me and gave me a wink and I said thank you I appreciate that Bell anywho.

Jared Gillins:
[57:39] Yeah I think that is interesting I think that’s worth discussing discussing you should people should go to the blog and put stuff in the comments or go to the Facebook page and there’s always a lively comment section over there too I would love to hear other people’s perspective on this I have some thoughts.

Geoff Openshaw:
[57:52] A lot of people are very against it and I’m mostly curious because we’re getting a new hymn book I still expect it to be hymns but I have seen that more recent,
Creations that have been incorporated as hymns perhaps or him adjacent like faith in every footstep something like that,
inherently seem to follow a bit bit more of a popular music structure and tone then the hymns of old so.

Jared Gillins:
[58:19] Sure.

Geoff Openshaw:
[58:20] I don’t think we’re going to go full praise music but I do wonder if the next hymn book is going to be a little bit more contemporary.

Jared Gillins:
[58:25] Yeah I’m super interested actually I recently learned that someone I know is actually working on the new hymn book that they are an editor working on this him.

Geoff Openshaw:
[58:35] Will that person be willing to speak to.

Jared Gillins:
[58:36] No I,
he won’t even tell his wife anything about what’s going in or not going into that hymn book he has said that it’s going to be a while it’ll be it’ll be a while yet before we see the hymn book publicly released I think we.

Geoff Openshaw:
[58:49] What if I make promises I’ll make promises all obscure his voice.

Jared Gillins:
[58:55] I don’t think it’s going to go for it but yeah that is so I’m super interested like he’s finding out that this this person I know was working on it just made me that,
that much more curious because I was like oh I know somebody and he won’t tell me anything it’s tantalizing.

Geoff Openshaw:
[59:11] Yeah for sure wow well your friend stinks but yeah that’s cool.

Jared Gillins:
[59:16] I’ll pass that on.

Geoff Openshaw:
[59:19] Thank you very much folks we hope you have enjoyed the show this week please go to this week in Mormons.com send us the email like we said before let us know how we’re doing we love your thoughts on these matters it’s fun not to just talk into The Ether but to actually,
hear what you think about these issues that’s contacted this week in Mormons.com if you’ve yet to become a patron on patreon,
you should be one because you will be happy and because it’s 2020 and it’s an all new tax year and because your contributions to patreon are in no way tax deductible so I want you to remember that.
It’s just,
it’s just straight money anyways it’s patreon PA Treo n.com / this week in Mormons I know it sounds like I’m begging every week but just a dollar a month of be great just to help us pay for our various servers and hosting and all that blah blah blah
that’s all we’re looking for this isn’t like a I’m not not paying a mortgage from this sort of thing folks.

Jared Gillins:
[1:00:08] Lining his pockets finishing his basement with your patreon.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:00:12] Sweet sacred twin dollars absolutely absolutely.

Jared Gillins:
[1:00:16] We need more transparency in the Twin budgeting process is what I say.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:00:20] If I were an incorporated non-profit I would have to do that.

Jared Gillins:
[1:00:24] Unless you were a religious one yeah.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:00:27] I should start a church.

Jared Gillins:
[1:00:29] Okay now we’re born now I think you’re starting to Edge towards that to the handbook definition of apostasy.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:00:33] I’m going to started we’re going to officially incorporate whim as a church though we will consider ourselves in communion with the Salt Lake Church.

Jared Gillins:
[1:00:44] Yeah I would still wait to see what the new handbook has to say about what apostasy is before you take a knee.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:00:49] Does it say you can’t start a church if your church is basically just following the other church and your church is just for tax purposes until recently.

Jared Gillins:
[1:00:56] I don’t know well is that the sea in two weeks.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:00:58] I’m going to write a letter to my stake president I bet he’ll have some thoughts on this matter.

Jared Gillins:
[1:01:01] He probably will.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:01:02] Okay well Jared thanks for being here this week.

Jared Gillins:
[1:01:04] Is it’s always a pleasure thanks for having me Jeff.

Geoff Openshaw:
[1:01:07] Pleasures mine everyone have a great week we hope all your dreams come true and that you choose the right and are blessed for doing so until then we’ll speak to you again another edition of this week in Mormons be well be holy and be.

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