EP 569 – Brad Wilcox and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Week

TWiM_EP569_Brad_Wilcox_Scandal_Race_Women_Priesthood

BYU professor, fireside speaker, and member of the Young Men’s General Presidency, Brad Wilcox, has had a pretty troubling week. Leaked fireside remarks showed Brother Wilcox using insensitive language to discuss race and the priesthood and women and the priesthood, making disparaging remarks about other religions, and employing fear tactics to keep youth from leaving the Church.

Overall, it was pretty bad, and social media erupted in condemnation. Brad Wilcox apologized twice for his remarks, but is he apologizing for the right things? Can the Church truly move forward on racial issues while refusing to reckon with its past? How can we move past a privileged white male’s perspective as the default one in Church culture? How do we acknowledge difficult doctrinal issues without being patronizing to those more adversely affected by them? There’s lots to unpack here.

Of course, there’s still other news, and you can grab links to the stories below!

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Transcript

00:00.00
Geoff Openshaw
Everybody how’s it going welcome to this weekend Mormons the premiere latter day Saint News Podcast I’m Jeff Openshaw we’re thrilled to have all of you with us this week big show this week lots of talk about president Nelson breaking the mold and sharing messages about Valentine’s day never seen that before. Um.

00:04.79
Jared
And I’m Jared gillins.

00:19.55
Geoff Openshaw
Lots of drama happening at Byu Lgbt Bills in Arizona you know missionaries being evacuated twice during the same mission and you know there’s this little batter of 1 Brad Wilcox that I guess maybe we’ll we’ll get into you know it’s ah brother Wilcox is terrible. Horrible. No good, very bad week and we’ll have play to say. About that and of course last but not least a new location for desret industries. That’s that’s our that’s our major one but we won’t tell you where until we get there. Gotta find you gotta hang out for the whole pot. Ah Jared. How’s it going though? What’s what’s new with you. How’s life.

00:55.67
Jared
I’m I’m good and I’m doing all right and life’s pretty good I had it fun. We can hanging out with my in-laws. We watched the super bowl together at my really oh I Guess you’re from that area.

01:03.10
Geoff Openshaw
go rams go rams so I didn’t have like a lot of feelings about it I mean the thing is the rams played in Anaheim down the street for me through most of my early youth. But then they left in like 94 or after the 94 season so most of my life.

01:15.86
Jared
Is that when they went to St Louis right

01:19.43
Geoff Openshaw
Would say louis and the raiders left at the same time back to Oakland so I mostly grew up in my adolescence without there being professional football in Southern California so it’s just that wasn’t a thing that anybody really cared about so it’s great that they’re back. But I also love cincinnati.

01:29.98
Jared
So when you were a kid what were they were they the Los Angeles rams or were they the Los Angeles rams of Anaheim even though they played in Orange County yeah

01:35.42
Geoff Openshaw
Of anahe that was I believe back then they were just the l a rams yes, they played at Anaheim stadium which is shared with the angels. But back then the angels were the California angels laying claim to the entire state. So it’s like take that dodgers you’re from l a or we’ve got the entire state covered. What do you think of that.

01:44.33
Jared
Right? Yeah, of course of course it’s yeah, right? So are there is there but then the Ram’s new stadium which is you know I read was like the cost of it was equal to the gdp of like 41

01:54.27
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, so I yeah was fine. Okay.

02:03.12
Geoff Openshaw
It a sofi stadium was crazy expensive. Yeah, it’s actually it’s in in it’s in La County it’s in inglewood down the way. Yeah, there used to be the old Hollywood Park casino and I think that a race track’s gone too and they built it down there for reasons beyond understanding you know, but.

02:04.30
Jared
Small countries. Yeah, so but that’s actually in Los Angeles now it’s or in l a county in inglewood. Okay.

02:20.76
Jared
Oh oh.

02:22.64
Geoff Openshaw
I guess that’s fine I guess we want to have it down there in inglewood gay for them. It’s better than where they thought about doing it. They thought about building the stadium for years all over the southland to try to get the Nfl back into California 1 proposed area was up not that you know well but kind of up near. Ah. The intersection of the fifty seven and sixty freeways and you’re like diamond bar and walnut because they thought it was more central to the inland empire because there’s you know people that very far Inland East out there in the Los Angeles area and they wanted to have the stadium be more centrally located but none of us wanted this because that would meant the main freeway by my parents house.

02:46.73
Jared
Sure.

02:56.61
Geoff Openshaw
That runs North South and leaves orange county through the hills would be a direct line to the new Nfl stadium and it’s already like pretty bad going through there so that would have been a whole lot whole lot of fun anyway. So yeah, go Rams but Cincinnati Iss also a wonderful city and I was excited for the bengals too.

02:59.30
Jared
Oh and then you’d have that terrible traffic clogging things up every Sunday and Monday yeah, oh yeah, I can see that. Yeah I mean honestly I didn’t have a lot invested I mean I’m not terribly invested in the Nfl anyway, you know if the seahawks you know my hometown team if they’re playing then I’m definitely excited about that. But yeah I mean there were 2 teams that I really didn’t care too much about. Ah, but I I was kind of rooting for the bangles foremost because I like an underdog one of the few is are they are they are they the only Nfl team that’s never won a super bowll I mean they’ve never won a super bowl. There’s a few but there’s not many and so I was like you know these guys I remember back in the 80 s them going to the super bowl and losing.

03:31.25
Geoff Openshaw
Sure I’m sure. No no, there’s a few there’s if there’s a few.

03:45.70
Jared
And so I was just like you know it’s nice to have an underdog win so I was rooting for them and and also and this is kind of really petty and and and what’s the word. It’s just completely surface level. But I just think they have cool helmets I like the tiger stripes.

03:56.91
Geoff Openshaw
They are cool helmets. So so just since this is very important on the sports podcast everybody 4 teams have never appeared in the super bowl I looked this up courtesy of Wikipedia Cleveland browns the like newer Cleveland browns out the Cleveland browns that went to Baltimore and became the ravens the Cleveland Browns the Detroit Lions

04:04.40
Jared
Oh you looked it up. Right? right? Oh well, they’re a relatively new team that they I but the Texans are the that’s right, Yeah,, that’s right.

04:14.77
Geoff Openshaw
Jacksonville jaguars and the Houston Texans they’re relatively new because the the oilers moved to Tennessee back when and became the titans yeah and then so now a handful other ones have appeared but never won the the ah the vikings have never won a super bowl.

04:28.72
Jared
So.

04:31.80
Geoff Openshaw
Surprisingly with four appearances the buffalo bills I remember in the 90 s it seems like they were there every year and could not eke out a win for a stretch there but they’ve never won the bangal have been 3 times and never won the falcons in Atlanta the carolina panthers the good old chargers and what else you yeah the the Houston Tennessee oilers Tennessee Titans whatever they’re called and the. St Louis Slash Phoenix Slash Arizona cardinals I’ve never won never even won yay stats.

04:50.26
Jared
Oh yeah, ah real quick just to as well long as we’re on this topic and to make it to to bring it back home from me. Do you know that there there’s only one major league baseball team that has never been to a world series. It’s the Seattle marins we may have talked about this on this podcast before.

05:02.30
Geoff Openshaw
Um, yeah, it’s the mariners. Yeah yeah.

05:08.31
Jared
Until a few years ago there were 2 Ah I mean and and then you have to broaden as a as far. Yeah, not just a team but a franchise. Yeah, the nets the net because the nets were they expos in Montreal before and they had that that team that franchise had never ever been to let alone 1

05:12.27
Geoff Openshaw
What what was the other one. The nat with the nats had never been.

05:21.10
Geoff Openshaw
The exposs never went doka. Oh yeah, because the expos had their great season back in 94 and then the strike came on the exposs were gonna clean house that year yeah Yeah

05:27.78
Jared
Yep yep, but nope yeah, so they. So yeah, they had never been too little alone one at world series and then a few years ago famously. The the nets took the series and I was really excited because I was living in Alexandria at the time it was like you know great that my current home team has won. It’s really exciting.

05:36.20
Geoff Openshaw
And Ryan Zimmerman retired today.

05:44.49
Jared
Ah, but then it made me really sad because I realized that my home home team has now as the unlikely distinction of being the only team in the Mari League baseball never to have been to world series I will say though what Seattle does claim those those who cling to our history is that back back back in the day. The Seattle.

05:59.39
Geoff Openshaw
Type the when record. Ah.

06:03.38
Jared
Pilots did win a national championship game I don’t know if it was called the world series back then Seattle pilots ended up being traded off and became the anyone anyone Milwaukee brewers.

06:14.27
Geoff Openshaw
It oh isn’t if I love the history of that like the fact that the Texas rangers were the Washington senators. Originally they moved to Texas and became the ranger and to this day the Texas rangers actually own the trademark to the curly w that those that the nationals use. Yeah funny things like that. So the nats have to hit.

06:20.19
Jared
Right? right.

06:27.80
Jared
Really did they get a did they get a piece of the action then that’s interesting. You think they would have chosen something slightly different that didn’t look quite like the Walgreens logo.

06:33.89
Geoff Openshaw
The nats have to pay them a royalty to use their logo. It’s kind of funny. So.

06:41.19
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, well, what are you gonna do? what can you do? okay.

06:44.21
Jared
Anyway, let’s let’s move on anyway I Well the whole point is it was fun I did have a nice weekend but it was a little uncomfortable attempting to watch the halftime show with three baby boomers in the room because they were not. They were not into it. Ah.

06:58.11
Geoff Openshaw
Oh come on like you can’t please out the debate. The boomers don’t like it but then the Gen Z doesn’t like it either. They think it’s this This was the halftime show for us I dont I heard people you know there was chatter like what’s this music for the old folks. We being the old folks.

07:04.67
Jared
What what? the gen z didn’t like it. It was classic but whatever was anybody complain when prince was playing the halftime show. It was the old like red hot chili peppers. Everybody loved that show like get over it. What? no no Bruno Mars saved it. He saved that halftime show.

07:20.39
Geoff Openshaw
Oh that one was terrible that one was terrible I don’t know I just remember after the um after the famous Janet Jackson incident like the next year it was like Paul Mccartney they like they played it as safe as they could and just said boomers have your. Day and then the next year for that it was the who it was so they nothing wrong with either of those but they they they they they definitely played it safe for a while after that anyway and then of course jlo was great that one time and I’ve got j lo on my mind because we watched marry me. Oh yeah, goes good time movie.

07:40.11
Jared
Yeah, no, no definitely throwbacks for sure.

07:52.51
Jared
How was it I heard it was a decent rom com. Yeah.

07:55.94
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, was fine. You know it’s what I could what it was fine. It was fine I appreciate J Lo’s commitment to keeping the romcom alive. You know it’s a dying genre the the mid budget her house’s her acting Oscar worthy like always.

08:04.71
Jared
How’s her acting. Because like yeah I’ve I’ve often avoided Jlo movies not because I happen to particularly dislike for her I think she’s a fine dancer vocalist etc. But I don’t think she’s a fine actor and ah unfortunately I saw part of it and that was part of what sealed the deal.

08:17.20
Geoff Openshaw
Um, have you seen made in Manhattan a a classic a classic by every measure every measure. Okay, so we’re drifting because we actually have important things to talk about this week um you know before we.

08:27.35
Jared
In my mind. Yeah, we do.

08:36.63
Geoff Openshaw
Gonna I want to talk about wilcox. But I think we’ll have a lot to say about that one. So before we get to that I think I’m gonna bump just bump a couple of things real quick that I want to get to um president Nelson shared a message on Valentine’s day this doesn’t seem like a huge deal and. Potentially it’s not except I just can’t remember a time when any profit is decided to leverage Valentine’s day into a message about an increase in lovingkindness you shared this onto social media properties like on Facebook and to be clear I did ah http://anlds.org and a newsroom search just looking for Valentine Valentine’s day and really you don’t nothing shows up. You don’t find anything of note. So I I think he’s he’s capitalizing on ah a vacuum of content here for valentine’s day you can find stuff called. There’s an article. There’s all stuff from like the 90 s from like 1985 about edible valentines. It’s a mess. So anyways, nice president Nelson to share this. You just talked to. But he’s talked about though it was in 2005 2 days before Valentine’s day that was when his first wife ah passed away and it was suddenly and not planned of course it was painful and he always kind of equated that to valentine’s day and then he of course found love and companionship later on with ah Wendy Watson but I love that he pivoted into saying you know regardless of our relationship status. Reminding us that for some. It’s a wonderful day to celebrate affection and love and for some people it’s painful because things haven’t you know, worked out as they hoped but he he pivots into reminding us that you know that we can focus on the savior of Jesus Christ that as we study the old testament we should look for a word that appears 25 times loving kindness is in the old testament.

10:05.70
Jared
And I liked that? yeah I thought that was good because you know a lot of times with the old testament. We get really caught up in like the weirdness or the violence or and you know and those things are part of the old testament and not that we should like downplay them ignore them. They’re all important parts of the of the scripture. But the idea though that it I mean.

10:08.99
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, so.

10:14.50
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

10:25.35
Jared
It’s false to say that’s all the old testament is about there is a strong message about the need for loving kindness and the commandment that the commandment to love your neighbor comes way before you know Matthew 25 or whenever that is that scripture is that that we quote a lot from Jesus. But yeah so um yeah I liked that idea that you know that’s something we can. Look for and is relevant in our current scripture study. Yeah is is a good message.

10:45.97
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, that was cool just it just stuck out to me I was like man president Nelson is on just he’s just he he does not miss an opportunity to find a way to thematically connect with us. So I thought that was great.

10:51.47
Jared
Um, you know, yeah definitely and also I think it was good because you know like the way we celebrate Valentine’s day now by and large it’s a celebration of like romantic love like Eros centered love right.

11:05.42
Geoff Openshaw
Right now.

11:09.59
Jared
And I was reading something on Twitter and this a catholic person was pointing out. They’re like no this um you know Valentine’s day is not reserved solely to celebrate 1 aspect of love. It’s really about loving kindness and loving mankind and you know god’s love etc. So I think it is appropriate to try and you know. Broaden our scope a little bit. It doesn’t have to be a miserable day if you’re alone I mean you know I don’t want to belittle anybody’s experience I’ve had years where I loathed beides day because of my single status etc. But you know, but we can make it what it needs to be for us and you know it can be a celebration of any kind of love.

11:47.10
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

11:47.22
Jared
My concern Jeff is that president Nelson has now put his first step. The church’s first step onto the slippery slope of us venerating catholic saints we start with Saint Ballentine’s day what happens next are we going to start venerating st patrick.

11:57.15
Geoff Openshaw
Well say Patrick’s day. Obviously obviously.

12:04.82
Jared
Are we going to just pull out the old liturgical calendar calendar and start having feast days for all the saints listed there like I don’t know I don’t know Jeff this isn’t the church I grew up in.

12:09.81
Geoff Openshaw
You listen listeners would know you’re all about the liturgical calendar though you are, you’re.

12:17.54
Jared
That’s and all about it. But I think I think there’s value in it I think we could do week. It would be useful for us to pay a little more attention to it and extend out our celebrations of Christmas and also Easter like not that we have to all do like a forty day fast for lent or whatever. But I think you know.

12:31.82
Geoff Openshaw
Pro.

12:35.35
Jared
There is some value in being a little more familiar with how other people how other Christians observe these feasts and holy days and maybe incorporate some of those things as appropriate but we should not be venerating saints. That’s all I have to say by that.

12:45.14
Geoff Openshaw
So well in some fun bit of extra Trivia St Valentine is not just a patron saint of you know types of love. He’s also the patron saint of beekeeping right.

12:56.23
Jared
Oh never mind let’s venerate him then I love Honey Honey’s great.

13:02.80
Geoff Openshaw
Which is all the more fun on Valentine’s day because when you think about like calling your honey honey. It’s got extra meaning now because of apiists right? and I believe I read. He’s also the patron saint of epilepsy I don’t know that was a thing that needed a patrons saint but it’s but it’s it’s true and another fun bit of truth.

13:04.10
Jared
Ah, yeah, that’s right, the sweetest of sweethearts.

13:14.60
Jared
I mean I’m sure people with Epilepsy appreciate having a Patron saint to call upon when.

13:21.39
Geoff Openshaw
And another fun bit of trivia friends is part of his relics are in the town of Sambir in western Ukraine since Ukraine’s in the news, the relics of st valentine are in ukraine good times all around no because.

13:33.32
Jared
Have you seen them. You know you you lived in Kiev for a while. Didn’t you.

13:38.33
Geoff Openshaw
I’ve been to. Yeah I mean I spent time in Ukraine but I I did live in ki for a little bit little stretch there. Yeah, but it wasn’t in cubeba was in Samie Sambir which is a town I’ve never been to. But.

13:45.49
Jared
Okay I have 0 idea of I can findk ukraine on a map and point to its capital city. But other than that I don’t really know anything about the geography. But maybe we should um maybe we should use that as ah because we’re so good at Segways. Um.

13:56.90
Geoff Openshaw
Um, Green’s a big country a country.

14:04.41
Jared
Speaking of the Ukraine there is a missionary that was featured in the desertt news who had to be evacuated twice on his mission. So the beginning of his mission ah started him out in the mtc like most people do he was learning russian preparing to go to the Ukraine which is interesting to me because.

14:04.88
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, you said the oh I’m so happy. Yeah, yeah.

14:19.47
Geoff Openshaw
Stop saying the you’re offending me you.

14:23.24
Jared
I’m sorry no I actually learned this recently and I made ah like ah I made a commitment to myself to stop using the the in front of Ukraine because I was like but I I’m I am influenced by my upbringing so I repent and I apologize to any ukrainians or any people who are ah you know who love the you love. The country of Ukraine. Um, anyway.

14:42.85
Geoff Openshaw
I had 1 other funny interjection. It happened to be on super bowl night I watched an episode of Seinfeld just like in I’ve been watching I’m casually in order I happen upon at all in 1 episode the episode when Jerry gets tickets to go to the super bowl and this happened me on super bowl Sunday and that is the same episode when.

14:47.95
Jared
Oh yes.

15:00.18
Jared
Right? I am from Ukraine yeah.

15:00.68
Geoff Openshaw
Newman and Kramer are playing risk and it has the famous scene about the Ukraine as weak. So I was just kind of cracking up with with with everything going on in the news like I’m looking at my newsfeed. The super bowl is ending. There’s the threat of war in Ukraine immediately and all of this is in 1 episode of Seinfeld I thought it was so random. What’s timing so continue tell.

15:17.36
Jared
Seinfeld is a Prophet. so so anyways so this mission is I wanted to ask though I mean I I kind of I mean I know that because Ukraine was part of the Ussr for such a long time and obviously just being neighbors with such a powerful and influential country. That’s.

15:20.23
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, well well yeah.

15:34.91
Jared
That way for centuries you’re going to have a lot of russian influence and obviously russian speaking russian language happening. But but if you’re serving in in Ukraine why would you not learn Ukrainian would that not be a more useful language or do you need both like Ukrainian and russian speaking missionaries there.

15:39.61
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, sure Yeah, of course.

15:50.57
Geoff Openshaw
It depends on where you are um, basically in Ukraine the farther west to east you go the more prevalent the russian language becomes. So if you’re in far western Ukraine.

16:00.63
Jared
Ah.

16:05.10
Geoff Openshaw
But first stretch was even its own mission. The levie mission. It’s it’s very ukrainian out there. The the identity is strong is even stronger I was in leviv out there in the west once and we asked someone like at the opera house if they had a program in russian and they just looked at us and they’re like we’re in Ukraine. Why would we have a program in russian but if you go to far eastern Ukraine there’s summaries where it’s. Dominantly russian especially basically the areas that Putin’s meddling in right now so you can you could actually Wikipedia this like language prevalence in Ukraine and it’s a very clear kind of percentage increase of as the way it shifts over between the the 2 so. It’s.

16:34.25
Jared
So is this an effective colonialism under the Ussr is this an effect of like shifting borders that go back and forth over the centuries is it or kind of but column a and column b yeah.

16:43.71
Geoff Openshaw
It’s a mix of all sorts of things I mean I mean I mean russians and ukrainians share kind of a common ancestry in many anyways. Kevin Ruse was almost the foundation of like Eastern Slavic culture and peoples that fanned out from there. Kevin Ruse is like what was Ukraine back in the day. Um. So it’s it’s like said a lot of things so soviets drawing up different borders. The fact that there are just ukrainians who are ethnically ukrainian not russian but russian is their first language because of proximity and being part of the russian empire and also part of it is because western ukraine for stretches was part of either the. Ah. Polish-lithuanian commonwealth or it was part of the austro- hungarian empire and so some of that has to do with old just old imperial borders and and things like that. so so yeah and so it all depends on your mission. They will call you.

17:16.16
Jared
Oh okay. And that’s why nationalism is dumb because if you go back far enough. Your nation was a different one anyway.

17:34.53
Geoff Openshaw
You could be called Ukrainian- speaking or Russian speaking from what I’ve seen most of the ones who were called Ukrainian speaking wind up picking up Russian anyway. But I have not always seen that the ones who go Russian speaking wind up picking up ukrainian.

17:42.90
Jared
Interesting and are both ah Ukrainian Both Ukrainian and Russian are slavic languages Correct sorry are they fairly closely related then would it be akin to like.

17:47.31
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, they’re close I mean they’re close. They’re close Ukrainian has some different sounds of different letters in alphabet and things like that. Yeah.

17:57.48
Jared
Spanish and Portuguese kind of a relationship or little farther apart.

17:58.89
Geoff Openshaw
So you could kind of say that I mean the sounds are similar what I would honestly say is Ukrainian phonetically sounds a little bit more like polish than it does Russian but written why as you can see a lot of similarities and there’s anyway, we’re nerding out your they both do Cyrillic alphabet.

18:06.72
Jared
Um, okay.

18:13.14
Jared
And they both use Cyrillic Cyrillic Alphabets right.

18:18.93
Geoff Openshaw
I’ve wondered if the Ukrainians would get hardcore and their pivot to the west and be like the turks and say guess what we’re because the turkey in Turkey in the ottoman Empire They used the Arabic alphabet for centuries and it wasn’t until turkey you know after War War one the Ottoman Empire Collapsed secular Turkey came out of the ashes that and you know at Aurk organized the the country of turkey.

18:25.10
Jared
Sure.

18:38.18
Geoff Openshaw
And as part of the process not outlawed but they changed the turkish language from one written with the arabic alphabet two hundredwritten with latin characters to deliberately pivot to Europe and some of other countries have done that whose Becasen did that fall the Soviet Union they made the uzbec language back in latin characters and all you know things happen. It’s interesting. Yeah.

18:49.73
Jared
Oh. That is super interesting I know no I mean we could like spendt a whole episode talking about like indo-e europeanuropean linguistics and history. So okay, yes, yes, yes, yeah, so he’s on a mission he goes he gets to coast the mtc. He’s learning russian because he’s preparing to go to Ukraine and then while he’s at mtc.

18:57.35
Geoff Openshaw
Okay, I’m nerding out. Dude you got this is dangerous. Hey. So hey so what happens is this kid was on a mission.

19:14.70
Jared
Covid nineteen so he had to get I mean and so evacuation is kind of a strong word I think not necessarily the most appropriate word but he was basically he was sent away from the mtc to I think he just did home mtc if I remember incorrectly for the remainder of his preparation and then when he got assigned. He.

19:18.49
Geoff Openshaw
I agree.

19:33.39
Jared
Ah, hang on he encounter some frustration in the empty seat right.

19:40.90
Jared
All right? So then yeah, so what is what what happened he got assigned to serve in the United States for a while right because of the you know with the with covid nineteen everything we weren’t sending missionaries abroad. In fact, many of our missionaries that were abroad were brought back home.

19:47.56
Geoff Openshaw
Which is normal. Yeah.

19:59.73
Jared
Um, so he ended up serving for several months if not like a click the cluster year in the United States and then eventually he got to be assigned to Ukraine and got to go.

20:09.30
Geoff Openshaw
And he was by the way he was in the nipro mission which is farther east so that makes even more sensitive with speaking that covers the entire country all the way out to the eastern frontier with Russia so.

20:16.87
Jared
Right? And also that is quite relevant to I mean I guess all ukrainian all non-native ukrainians who are serving there have been reassigned and that’s what happened that’s his second evacuation. So he’s been serving in Ukraine and just. Was it a few weeks ago. The church evacuated all non-native ukrainian missionaries out of Ukraine and so it’s funny because it’s interesting. it’s it’s it’s fun to kind of read the article and see his perspective because he talks about how the experiences at the beginning of his mission prepared him for this experience where he said you know a lot of these other.

20:39.16
Geoff Openshaw
Yep.

20:53.71
Jared
Shares are feeling really uprooted and kind of just like disoriented with this and I feel like you know I’ve been here I’ve done that it’s kind of par for the course for me and he also acknowledged. You know that he feels like he’s been strengthened by the spirit through these experiences but also he’s learned to lean on. Spirit for you know in these types of situations. So he’s just like hey it happens and he’s happy I think he was close enough to the end of his mission that he’s just going home but there are other missionaries who are having to be reassigned and again mostly within the United States mostly it was american missionaries and they’re getting sent to Alaska and Illinois all places that are. Nothing at all like Ukraine. So I’m sure it is quite jarring but this guy was was you know taking it all in with you know in strident. It’s it’s a cool, fun little article.

21:39.26
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, fun little fun little article. It seems like he got back for a few weeks I love the part at the end when it just says like he is now working in real estate. It’s like it’s like this random epilogue like it happened years ago if um, so.

21:50.19
Jared
Yeah, whatever, it’s just sort of like where are they now what he’s working in real estate.

21:57.23
Geoff Openshaw
Just just 1 random update since we’re on ukraine real quick. So this I posed on January thirtieth from a member I saw who was there in Ukraine and it was the fifth. It was a fifth Sunday in January and everyone does different. You know, specialized lessons for adults usually on a fifth Sunday but he said the Sunday school lesson in Kiev today. Was all about what to do in case Russia invades so they spent their time in church covering like making um 72 hour kits storing decontaminated water for drinking um sharing all their experiences discussing like exit paths out of Kiev if they need to get farther west and try to get out like.

22:13.81
Jared
Yeah, yeah.

22:29.25
Geoff Openshaw
And then they said that’s great. Everyone has upbeat demeanors in planning this but it’s a good reminder that um you know while you go to your fifth Sunday lesson and it winds up being some kind of rote discussion about like temple of family history work or something like that. The saints in Ukraine are planning for war and how to survive in the event of it. So just good perspective.

22:47.78
Jared
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let’s do it.

22:48.94
Geoff Openshaw
I thought from seeing that. Ah, yeah, all right? You know what? let’s just do it wilcoxia I don’t even know where to begin. So obviously everyone last week folks by the way we had a great interview with Tyler the fever and Sam Skidmore ah 2 individuals one is ah a doctor and the other one is obtaining his ph d and they did a study on individuals who have but lgbtq latter-day saints who have met with their ecclesiastical leaders and sort of talked about their experiences of what things were good and bad for them like what resonated well with them. And they’re trying to expand that research to include the bishops and state presidents and branch presidents and their experiences in that same vein anyway, ah I’m saying that because you should take a time to listen to it. It was a great discussion and it’s also a reason why we didn’t do news last week and so we might have covered the story last week had that been the case even though it broke right around the time we usually record.

23:41.92
Jared
It’s kind of good that you didn’t though because so much more has developed since that last episode.

23:42.19
Geoff Openshaw
But exactly in the weeks since we’ve learned a lot more but just for a quick primer in case, anybody missed it I don’t know how you would I think this has reverberated pretty strongly around the latter-day saint sphere Brad Wilcox who is a beloved by many byu professor of religion. He currently serves on the young men’s general presidency. He’s prominent on the lds fireside circuit I mean I think my first exposure to him was in California came into the the fabled irvine fireside for young single adults and did his thing and I I loved it back then I even. Even sent him an email afterwards thanking him for his remarks and asking him to specify talk a little bit more about 1 section of it. He like he he sent me a copy of his book and wrote a nice little note inside it for me and all kinds of stuff like I was very touched so Brad Wilcox is is beloved by many but then Brad Wilcox was giving a fireside in alpine Two Sundays ago ah the problem was this fireside was recorded on Zoom and somebody leaked it out and Brad Wilcox said what we can charitably describe as insensitive and inappropriate and unfortunate things about blacks and the priesthood about women in the temple. About those who might consider leaving the church. Um, yeah, yeah, he’d kind of demean other religions in many ways now I okay sorry but um so a lot went down.

24:57.18
Jared
About people who never were part of our church. Not kind of he he he specifically and emphatically demeaned other religions. So.

25:15.50
Geoff Openshaw
We will of course post the audio I mean if you haven’t seen it already. We can embed it if we need to on the website you can see the video of him saying this but basically he gets up and he’s trying I get the point he’s trying to make he’s trying to talk about god’s timing and things more or less and he says like well what about let’s talk about blacks in the priesthood. What about black what he says the blacks which is even terrible. And and the priesthood he’s like oh you know Brigham Young’s a jerk. The members are racist and he’s that that he says maybe we’re asking the wrong question says what about why? no one had the priesthood until 1829 and it’s it’s toned like this and it’s ah, Hu’s trouble and jeed I don’t know there’s a lot to unpack.

25:52.25
Jared
Yeah, so like like yeah then we don’t have to give all the details. But yeah, so there was that part part about diminishing the you know and and part of the problem here that you know the larger problem is you know, especially in the as this began is that he’s taking.

25:53.43
Geoff Openshaw
I Don’t I need to like recite the entire thing but.

26:10.51
Jared
People’s sincere questions and doubts or you know just issues that they have with church history or church Doctrine Church practice etc and he’s being very dismissive about them and so yeah, there was very much a tone that he took on with this whole like and this you people worrying about the blacks and the priest did and then he did the same thing with women and the priesthood.

26:19.60
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, no.

26:29.70
Jared
He did ah and this similar thing with just in like you said in general with people who are on their way out of the church who have left the church. He it almost came across as a threat to the youth in the audience that if they left the church you will lose everything and the way he said it I mean he takes if you know if you’ve listened to Brad Wilcox he has a very.

26:39.48
Geoff Openshaw
You will lose everything. Yeah, oh.

26:48.49
Jared
Particular way of inflecting and intoning and speaking and there are times when he wants to like communicate something very seriously his tone kind of drops and he gets into a little bit of a whisper and that’s what he took on when he said you will lose everything and so it’s like yeah so there was a lot of problems that people. Found and encountered and walked away with upon viewing this this talk that was recorded ah but the main thing that people seem to latch on especially in the beginning was this idea of. The blacks right? and the priesthood and how dismissive he was and how he turned it from a problem of like why was there this policy and it and it must be clear. This wasn’t just for our sakes of discussion and for clarity you know we often use the term priesthood ban. Um, and I’ve seen it.

27:19.47
Geoff Openshaw
The.

27:36.38
Jared
Pointed out and I think this is an important thing to clarify a priested band makes it sound like black men were discriminated against and that’s true, but this was also an exclusive policy doctrine that applied to women in the temple men and women in the temple So This is not a priesthood band. This is a priesthood. And temple exclusion for all black members of the church who have African descent. Um, anyway.

27:59.64
Geoff Openshaw
And and that’s one that jumped out of me because he spends a lot of his remarks when when he pivots over into women and the priest did you know there’s this remark he makes he He basically says I’m paraphrasing but he says like you know if a man wants to go the perform ordinances the temple you know they’ve got to be set apart. They got to do this whole thing says women you just waltz right in there.

28:16.29
Jared
And he did use the term waltz right in when referring to the temple.

28:18.42
Geoff Openshaw
And and he’s and and he’s he’s he’s trying to set this up with the idea of of sort of building upon what Elder oakes or president oakes gave number of years Ago. You’re talking about how we how women also exercise priesthood power. But there’s a distinction between those who are ordained to the priesthood or have priesthood keys. That can be a complicated discussion. But once again, he’s kind of flippant about it and it’s weird because he’s like simultaneously trying to downplay the importance of priesthood ordination. But then at the same time as if to make it sex. So The women can waltz right in but then you have to be quickly reminded like you said. Ah.

28:47.13
Jared
Gaff.

28:53.35
Geoff Openshaw
Priest or nation is not important for the temple then why couldn’t black women go in in the first place which has nothing to do with priesthood or nation as you said and that that’s a gaping hole in the logic right? there. It’s just.

29:00.82
Jared
Right? And it’s also and and it’s not about even ah you know it is you know? So we yeah it. Yeah so it was all it was you know across the board black people is but in ah in the and officially it was black people who traced their lineage through Africa so I guess like. Darker skinned maori peoples or you know like aboriginal people in Australia didn’t apply to them I don’t know.

29:24.00
Geoff Openshaw
Well kind of and the reason it got so messy as time went on is because primarily you had people of mixed race to sentence South Africa and in Brazil and it became ah and the church is like we can’t be in business just trying to like police people’s Dna just to see if they can have a temple recommend right? And so yeah.

29:31.14
Jared
Bright. Right? exactly right? So anyway. So yeah, So he he’s okay so the point. Yeah, so we’re talking about this. You know this this this very important and big thing and it’s interesting too because ah also he’s talking about it. This issue of.

29:42.25
Geoff Openshaw
Um.

29:55.99
Jared
The the priest did in temple exclusion as if it’s a big question and we just don’t know the answer and he’s given this whole like well maybe it’s because Brigen was a jerk. Maybe it’s because they were racist and it’s and he says we don’t really know, but here’s another question and he tries to reframe it in a way that makes you know poor mainstream white people the victims because they were had to. Have the priesthood for for 1800 years or whatever but the other thing that’s a problem here is that I mean we know pretty well why we had priesthood and temple exclusion policy and doctrine be briham young was not shy about explaining it. And so it’s like why are we pretending? This is a mystery that we we can flippantly make up you know excuses for or flippantly dismiss as we try to churn the you know the the conversation on its head in the way that he tried to and it’s like well no I mean we do know why and yes. Yes, the the it was wrong like the the the doctrine that brother Brigham espoused and explained for why would he instituted this policy is incorrect and disavowed by the church and also. The explanations that he gives are rooted in racist ideas that cast all people of black african descent in a certain way or of a certain descent or of a certain character and so and it’s just interesting because again he’s being very dismissive and it’s and I think a lot of the criticism comes because it’s ah it’s a type of misdirection away from. Truth away from facts that may not be comfortable or it may not be easy to like wrap our heads and hearts around and to you know, really accept as part of the history of our doctrine but you know it’s a.

31:38.43
Geoff Openshaw
Um, well we don’t we we don’t accept it I mean I think sorry I mean it’s I think it’s the yes, yes.

31:43.50
Jared
Right? exactly? but but you do have but you do have to accept it that as a reality like this is something that’s part of our heritage is part of something that what used to be taught and used to be believed. But apparently and then then that’s the next problem is that he you know used to be used to be is is what we should be saying but the way he’s teaching. Ah, these ideas. It’s almost as if you know he still believes those things that have been disavowed and and he never never explicitly said he did but that’s the implication that’s coming through and so I mean and I saw some people you know I’ve seen of course because online you’re going to see all sorts of takes. Um.

32:08.35
Geoff Openshaw
Stop there.

32:19.27
Jared
And some people are saying like oh you’re reading too much into it. It’s not that big a deal hey didn’t mean it that way. But the problem is that like so many people currently do and will continue to struggle with this doctrine and with this policy and so whether or not he intended to like the way he addressed it. Was flippant enough and dismissive enough that whatever his intentions were it came across as hurtful and it came across as ignorant really and so.

32:45.77
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, came across as as as privileged, comfortable white men from the Intermount West who don’t think any better Even even if they I don’t think he has any malice I don’t but but it speaks to but it speaks to institutional structural cultural issues that we have as a faith community that we need to have the courage to address.

32:50.81
Jared
Right? exactly in the and let’s. Yeah, and let’s give credit where credit is due. We. We’ve got links that we’ve you know as in our prep and we’ll have these links if you’re if if they haven’t already been posted to twins feed and on the website they will be but he has apologized twice now.

33:03.72
Geoff Openshaw
And and.

33:15.79
Geoff Openshaw
But the but.

33:17.42
Jared
He gave 1 apology the the day after this thing leaked the day after the fire I mean the day it leaked and it was day after the fireside he he got pretty quick onto that apology um platform and I got to say you know and people of course as they’re going to do. Ah, like a lot several people found fault with the Paul with the apology and then that’s gonna happen the the aologylog you came across more is like I said the way I said things was hurtful and I’d never intended that but here’s the thing to those offended right? right.

33:44.60
Geoff Openshaw
We said he said he said to those offended I Especially my dear black friends offer my sincere apologies which is good but then you’re couching in a language you’re saying if you were offended I’m sorry not what I said he does say his he did and credit to him.

33:54.30
Jared
Right? right? but but he also did recognize some fault of ah of his own and so I and I want to say like that that takes guts especially to do it so quickly and to do it in the way he did you know and he and he did it via Facebook post but still.

34:03.20
Geoff Openshaw
That for me. Yeah.

34:12.17
Jared
Reached a lot of people and I gotta give him credit for that to say he recognized that you know he could very easily said hey I didn’t do anything wrong. You guys are make a big deal of it or he could have just ignored it right? but he did get on social media and issue an apology and I have to admire him for that and when he apologized the second time it was in um.

34:12.75
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

34:20.96
Geoff Openshaw
Right? right.

34:30.19
Jared
Context of another fireside that he was giving right? So he’s in he’s on a Zoom fireside this time he wasn’t the first time he’s in a chapel and it’s being broadcast over zoom this time he was giving a fireside to some youth ldsyouth in Canada and so he was doing it over Zoom and he began his remarks. By bringing up what he had said and he not only acknowledged that he had said it that 1 time but he also acknowledged as many people brought up online that this is a kind of a can’t talk that he has given several times. So right.

34:57.61
Geoff Openshaw
And that’s for for me what was lacking in the first apology was like basically saying like oh I said some things last night that didn’t come out the way I intended but then immediately of course if you’ve beent you know they rehearse these things. This is part of who they are as what as as disciples, but also as kind of part of your brand when you’re.

35:09.24
Jared
Of course. Well, he’s on a speaking Circuit. He has canned prepared remarks right? yeah.

35:16.35
Geoff Openshaw
Hot on the fireside circuit. Yes, you absolutely like are you telling me someone gives Ted talks and isn’t workshopping them beforehand and rehearsing their remarks right? It’s the same idea and so that’s the part initially. So I’m I’m very pleased that he gave a second. Apology. But even then it was still kind of in response to like oh it’s surfaced that more stuff I’ve said this many times it turns out like and he knew in the first apology that he’d said the same thing in the past. So I don’t think there’s any possible way he did.

35:38.86
Jared
Right? So yeah, the first apology it was sort. It was just addressing. You know what he said in that particular video that got leaked but then in the second apology he it’s more comprehensive and he says. It wasn’t the first time I’d given that talk it wasn’t the first time I’d used the ideas I shared or the line of reasoning that I used to address some difficult topics and then it says and then he says in the past I failed to see how my comments could be seen as insensitive and hurtful and I’m very grateful for friends who have helped me and corrected me and taught me once again I apologize and I’m grateful more than ever. For the atonement of Jesus Christ which allows us to trust in the Lord again. Very good and here’s the thing like I think you said this already. But I don’t know further wilcox extremely well I’ve met him on a few occasions. Um I’ve interacted with him. My sister actually took a class from him in the last year or two because he it’s funny because you know everybody’s. On talking on and on about how he’s a professor of ancient religion I vu yes, he is. He teaches some scripture classes. No and his main and in fact, most of his teaching is spent in teaching literacy and like how to teach literacy to young children. That’s why my sister took a classroom and she was doing adult continuing education classes.

36:36.59
Geoff Openshaw
But that’s that’s not what his doctorate is in nope.

36:52.41
Jared
Um, for a certification you know with her work in teaching literacy to young children and that’s his specialty anyway. But ah, but but I well hey and so but I want my point is that like right right? but.

37:00.40
Geoff Openshaw
Should we go off on a massive. Let’s go off on a massive aggression of not B you hiring about using not any Cs people as a priority or religious lots for which you are academically graded which makes perfect sense. Sure sure.

37:12.13
Jared
But like right right? Yeah, and so I mean but again so it’s interesting that he still says his he didn’t see how his comments could be seen as insensitive and hurtful and again I I don’t doubt his oh at what moment my point in whole all this is from what I understand of brother Wilcox. And from what I’ve been told both you know from what I understand from my interaction with him from what I’ve been told by people who know him I don’t he is an extremely sincere person I’ve seen so people casting him as some sort of shistster or you know so like ah a salesman or you know someone who’s shilling for the brethren or something like that and it’s like.

37:37.70
Geoff Openshaw
Of sure.

37:49.10
Jared
I Don’t think those are accurate depictions of him I think he is extremely sincere I think he is very heart just wholehearted and like heartfelt when he speaks like I don’t think he says anything he doesn’t mean and so I think what he’s apologizing I believe he really means it. But the problem remains and so again I don’t so please nobody take me this as me criticizing his apology or saying I don’t accept his apology or that it wasn’t good Enough. It’s good enough but but the problem remains and is evident in the way he couched his apology that it’s not I mean he doesn’t understand that it’s not a.

38:16.15
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

38:22.32
Jared
Just that his comments were seen as insensitive and hurtful his comments were insensitive and hurtful the the things that that the beliefs and the ideas that he was basing his comments and instruction off of are incorrect and hurtful and damaging you know and so I wish that we could. Hear or sees some sort of statement and whether it’s from brother Wilcox or whether it’s from the church or whether it’s from Byu or whatever that acknowledges hey it’s not just that this came across is like as callous or dismissive etc. The problem is these comments were based off of incorrect teachings. False ideas that we try have been trying to dismiss and correct for the last forty four years right? So I don’t know like it is interesting because by you did make a statement all they did they it was a tweet that came out that said they were deeply concerned about brother Wilcox’s comments so that’s nice. They were deeply concerned but again there was no nothing addressed like nothing addressed the root of the problem which is we don’t believe that there was a good doctional reason for black people to not be allowed in the temple or be allowed to be ordained to the priesthood like there’s there’s.

39:19.82
Geoff Openshaw
Thoughts and Prayers buddy thoughts and prayers. So.

39:37.95
Jared
That’s not part of our belief system and if we and when we talk about this topic without explicitly acknowledging that there’s a problem right? Anyway, I’ve been talking for a while. What do you have any other kind of thoughts or input.

39:48.11
Geoff Openshaw
I think you’ve summed to love it one with a second apology I agree with you I mean that but you can’t apologize for your tone you have to apologize for saying the thing you said and then and disavow that I I appreciate it though that is in I think that I think this was good. Um in his second apology. On the call he had with him the first counselor in the young men’s presidency brother ahmed corbit who is african-american and and I’m hoping this well he said he says this but he says this specifically like brother my my dear friend brother Corbett has like helped correct me and helped me to learn.

40:09.83
Jared
Right? So when he says my friends have helped me see like I’m sure he’s talking about one of his friends.

40:24.22
Geoff Openshaw
And to understand which is good I don’t think he was just bringing them on like a token like black friend to try to say like see see I have you know mixed race friends of different backgrounds. Um, so I thought that part was good I was glad to see that he’s engaging with someone close to him about what to do better and hopefully they’re having positive thoughtful discussions about it. I Think for me a lot of what this is all just sort of laid bare once again, which I’ve seen many times over the issues of blacks in the priesthood and you know official declaration to all that stuff Like. We’re We’re at this point right now it seems especially with everything President Nelson’s been doing with the and NwAcp which is all very positive. All very good building bridges moving forward. That’s kind of seems to be the tone of the church we are moving forward pushing out that notion that we are not Racists. We Love Everybody. We actually believe in some.

41:15.86
Jared
All are alike unto God that kind.

41:17.25
Geoff Openshaw
Elements in social Justice Ah, all are like under God We believe we actually I mean you know president ah President oakes gave that talk when he said absolutely black lives matter like we’re doing things in this regard. Yeah, we’re so we’re actively engaged in this effort but I and we’re trying to turn the page but I don’t think I.

41:26.65
Jared
And he actually put it on a banner across the bottom the screen. Yeah.

41:36.44
Geoff Openshaw
It’s never going to go away like this the hurt if the church refuses to just straight up really disavow it and you know obviously we have the gospel topics essays. We have saints volumes 1 and 2 and all that and and they talk about those things frankly to their credit which is good and those have all been positive steps. But everything comes short. The and the church says like this was wrong but they don’t go that extra mile and say like you know dumb weak men did dumb things that were wrong even in the eyes of god that’s obviously a shorter way to say it and I imagine that’s because they don’t want to go that that dangerous extra step to imply. Prophetic incorrectness I ah I mean I guess we we are far too close on like prophetic infallibility culturally which we shouldn’t and there’s some to their credit like elder ukdorf who’ve tried to like speak out against that. But um I just think like we we won’t wreck it. We don’t still don’t reckon with it.

42:20.70
Jared
Right.

42:31.20
Geoff Openshaw
Fleetly like you and I are talking about right here we’re trying and all these ways to make it better to teach people not to be racist, but that thing is always looming there about our history for one hundred plus years of a policy that we had um and it’s funny. We’ve talked about this the other night I was.

42:31.19
Jared
No.

42:44.70
Geoff Openshaw
Is an example of us trying to move forward I think so I was reading a general I’ve been reading through general conference talks from the last session I hope I hope you’ll appreciate this slight tangent I was reading um elder the elder quientinll cook’s remarks from the last conference personal peace and challenging times. He starts his remarks talking about how he got to dedicate part of historic navu and he is part of his assignment. He went to liberty jail which I was like okay that’s in the western Missouri and then you traveled across a whole state to get to your next thing is one assignment but whatever works. Um, but of course he talks about Joseph’s experience in Liberty Jail and his his talk’s really good. It talks about I mean he speaks at length about the ways we can um you know be closer to god and love other people and be more tolerant of them and this and that but there was 1 funny paragraph that just stuck out to me as like a comms person. Whatever it may be so literally see if you can see this jaredy says. The lives of the saints were threatened at as the result of an extermination order issued by the governor of Missouri in addition, the prophet Joseph Joseph and few as choice. Associates Associates had been unjustly in prison and Liberty Jail 1 of the reasons for the violent opposition to our members was most of them were opposed to slavery. The intense persecution of Joseph Smith and his followers constitutes. An extreme example of the unrighteous exercise of agency that can impact righteous people people Josephs Simon liberty jail demonstrates that adversity is not evidence of the Lord’s Disfavord nor withdrawal of his blessings was there 1 sentence there that jumped out to you as ah as a borderline just almost didn’t even belong and could have been excised and.

44:05.20
Jared
Like a non sequitur ah the opposition to slavery anything or is that you’re talking about.

44:08.40
Geoff Openshaw
Really So yeah, like it’s funny and I read the whole rest of the talk expecting that to be a theme and it wasn’t there and I’m curious I Can only guess of course but in reading this I’m like I feel like this is one of these subtle things where where.

44:15.47
Jared
Yeah.

44:24.93
Geoff Openshaw
Elder cook is trying to drop this in for no reason other than to say like the members from a long time ago were against slavery as if I know I might be maybe I’m reaching here. But the fact that it’s never addressed anywhere else in the talk and it’s just like the random 1 reason that the members of the saints face persecution from missourians was because of opposition to slavery.

44:29.55
Jared
Yeah.

44:42.99
Geoff Openshaw
Nothing else to do with the rest of the remarks. It’s it seems like an interesting thing to include because to me it seems like oh we’re just trying to remind the people that even back when we were not racists. We were against that terrible institution right? It’s it’s right.

44:43.57
Jared
I mean right. Which is totally which is which is just because it’s frustrating because while that statement is true. Many of the state many of the saints were you know abolitionists and I think Joseph Smith himself was pretty abolitionist although he did preach that the bible had some justifications for slavery at the same time.

45:11.69
Geoff Openshaw
Didn’t they also have plans to colonize Texas and let it be a slave like theocracy at 1 point wasn’t that a thing. Yeah I mean there’s anyway that.

45:12.51
Jared
Ah, right? something anyway at the same time you you know fast forward a decade or so to Utah and we have brigham young not only using the bible to justify slavery. But ah. Basically being the key and instrumental person in making Utah into a slaveholding territory slavery was legal in Utah and and at one point a slave an enslaved person was paid as tithing and was used by the church until he was they they did emancipate him. Like 3 years after receiving him as a tithe but I mean yes, the early saints many of them were opposed to slavery and that brought on persecution from some of the missourians. But also as part of our church history. There’s all there is there’s proslavery stuff and there’s racist I mean this is just interesting because it’s like. Like you said I I I agree I love what the church is doing to move forward I think moving forward is an imperative I think it’s important like we have to like moving forward. You know it’s progress the definition of progress is moving forward but I don’t think it’s possible like you said to move forward without reckoning with and acknowledging.

46:11.43
Geoff Openshaw
Um, yeah, yeah.

46:24.74
Jared
And even I would say I would use the word repenting of our past and I don’t think this is a radical idea like the lord himself in the doctrine covenants calls on the church to repent. It says the church he calls the members of the church and the church itself to be under condemnation. And 1 of the reasons why he says they’re under condemnation is because they’ve neglected the new covenant even the book of mormon and he says that they will remain under condemnation until they repent and start using the book of mormon and then he you know he names a couple other things but there is precedent in in latter day revelation for the church to. Guilty of a sin collectively and also for the church collectively to be called on to repent and make right? What the lord is calling them out on and so I don’t know I I would love to see more work done to reconcile our past and to acknowledge it very frankly. And to correct the errors of thinking that persist and to do that as a means of repentance that will help us to move forward in the way that we all want to and that especially ah yeah, we can see president Nelson wants us to um, but yeah I just don’t think you can have one without the other.

47:35.24
Geoff Openshaw
No so before we move off of this what if any action do you think should happen regarding brother Wilcox like that. There’s some obviously there’s some there. The Calvin Burkes who believe he should be released and fired from everything and let it all go. Honestly I am partially of the opinion I his remarks about women made me uncomfortable enough that I I don’t know my boys aren’t teenagers yet. But I’m like like by use its own thing right? like I b y is gonna do what it wants but at the church level part of me’s like yeah I don’t know how much I could sustain him as a member of the young men’s general presidency who is. Charged with teaching the young men how to righteously wield the priesthood to which they are ordained based on some of the things he has said and that might be a bit of a leap but like I I would not be opposed if people were like no brother Wilcox you should not be in this calling anymore.

48:19.38
Jared
Yeah.

48:29.63
Geoff Openshaw
Also don’t think people employed by be why you or CeoS should be in general church callings I think that just winds up muddying the waters in a weird way. But yeah I just don’t think that’s I just don’t think that’s the the best idea it’s like when it’s like when your bishop is a politician you know it’s like this kind of thing like what do you? It’s just makes it. It’s just messy.

48:35.84
Jared
There’s a bit of a conflict there is and there I mean it creates a conflict. Yeah I mean right? No and and that’s a hard question because honestly you and I we are not qualified nor are we in a position to.

48:52.42
Geoff Openshaw
So sure. Okay.

48:52.66
Jared
You know make decisions like this. Um, but I hear what you’re saying I don’t have children but I I had that thought it was like if I did have teenage kids and they wanted to watch a fireside by Brad Wilcox or go to an Fsi or you know or education week or something like that and listen to them. I. At a point now I mean and I grew up I grew up. We bought his cassette tapes with his talks I went to efy sessions or or education week sessions and I sought him out because I loved him and I do love him. You know a lot of my testimony came from those years as a youth when I was listening to Brad Wilcox and John by the way and like they inspired me to.

49:13.10
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

49:29.33
Jared
Get into my scriptures more and like really you know dig into my testimony I think he’s done great things and I think he probably continues to do great things along that front but like at made a point now where I’m like after this I would I would probably be hesitant to say hey son maybe this maybe for this education week. You know. Hour instead of going to brother. Wilcox maybe let’s check someone else out you know and so I think for me did not feel that discomfort I would like to I mean I think Paul I think he’s apologized enough I don’t I’m yeah I’m not calling for more apologies but I would like to hear him speak out and correct himself.

49:51.21
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

50:08.58
Jared
And like moving forward to yeah I like what he did with this zoom fireside where he you know started out acknowledging and of course it turned into an apology and again I don’t want another apology but I think if he could continue to acknowledge hey this is something that I have taught or has been taught in the past here’s a better way to understand this or here’s or here’s why. We can even say we don’t understand or whatever like to be more Frank and forward with correcting things and making sure that he’s teaching clear and correct doctrine and moving away from this that that to me. I’m not going to call for his release I’m not going to call for him to be fired from his job or whatever I I do I do with you. Ah, you know we’ve talked about this for I question the wisdom of having people assigned as not to not adjunct but like assistant professors.

50:45.54
Geoff Openshaw
No, we’re not going to agitate with.

51:00.84
Jared
Of religion of ancient scripture when they have 0 qualifications in the field of ancient scripture. you know I mean I you know it

51:03.95
Geoff Openshaw
Well, they’ve studied you know, which really is no different on paper than like the ah the Joseph Smith documentary we talked about almost a month ago that some thought I didn’t give a fair shake to I thought it was I thought it was genuinely interesting and there were some things there but but that was.

51:13.44
Jared
Yeah, you they wanted you to give a fair shake to a conspiracy theory video is that what’s going on here Sorry I’m going to get more hate mail for you I’m sorry for the.

51:22.89
Geoff Openshaw
But either way it was. It’s but all that is born out of somebody somebody’s own personal. Yeah, thank you? But all that is born out of someone’s personal deep dive into a subject matter and then they’re going on positing what they have believed. They have discovered and learned about it and frankly, a lot of professors of religion are.

51:35.76
Jared
Yeah.

51:40.20
Geoff Openshaw
No different than that. But you’re just talking about church approved materials instead of you know more out there theories Functionally it’s I could teach religion.

51:42.40
Jared
Know no, but when you like when I was a yeah but you know there were ah there have been I believe there still are professors there who do it like you know Steve Robinson who’s passed away now but you know he was famous for his book believe in Christ parable of the bicycle right? but he was a professor of religion. He had a.

51:56.44
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

52:02.40
Jared
Ph d from duke’s divinity school and you know and in which he had you know done his dissertation on you know topics in the new testament and I think in something about the episols of Paul I can’t remember specifically but the fact is the guy was qualified scholastically etc. To t change the scripture and I took a new testament classroom Michael D Rhodes the guy had background in egyptology and and in studying that you know that you know anciented hieroglyphics and culture, etc, Etc, Etc and I took ah a pearl great price class from him like oh my gosh this guy who was uniquely qualified to talk about. Abrahamic scrolls and you know the papyrus et cetera like yeah I think there’s a value in scholarship and in like really having that deep dive of foundation of knowledge from which you can draw on and authoritatively teach and it to authoritatively answer questions or or help direct. Students to find answers to their questions and when you are an expert in teaching literacy to young people which is an amazing and important you know field to teach and to be an expert in that doesn’t make you qualified to teach ancient scripture and so again so I’m not gonna call for him to be fired or to be dismissed from his job. But i. I mean I am a little disappointed that we have put so much stock in the cs system which teaches people for first and foremost how to present information to teenagers and how to form good relations with teachers student relationships with them like it’s ah. The cess process is how to how to make a good teachers who are good at teaching with certain methods. It’s not a process that is about becoming an expert in the study of ancient scripture and so.

53:44.33
Geoff Openshaw
I and I and I might be I might be off on this having not been a byu in a while I feel like there’s a distinction I feel like those who are not necessarily schooled in theology at be why you often wind up teaching the. I want to say the basics but like the core courses like like Wilcox is assigned to teach book of mormon new testament mission and prep stuff like that whereas if you want to take something like on islam or judaism or more deep dive stuff that requires a greater greater training and theology. That’s.

54:03.59
Jared
Right.

54:15.75
Geoff Openshaw
More likely to be reserved for the Ph D in the subject matter. But then they just throw all the other stuff but just the ones where institute picture is good.

54:18.40
Jared
Well, yeah for now or at least like you said when we were there or for now. But what happens in 1015 years when these tenured professors who have ph d in those topics as they begin to more and more to retire or pass away. Um, and then we only are tiring in. Into the religion and teaching department people who have been through the cs process and you don’t have experts in islam or judaism etc like are they still? Yeah, do we not teach this course its exactly that was but exactly my question do we stop teaching them or do we have people who are uniquely not qualified to teach them.

54:42.67
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, and then what do those? do we drop those courses because they don’t matter. Yeah, so.

54:53.83
Geoff Openshaw
Which could be even worse because like the last thing we need is greater misunderstanding of other faiths and things like that within our own our own I think as as much. Ah.

54:54.60
Jared
Teach those courses like yeah yeah, right? which goes back to the one of the problems with this fireside that started this whole thing. You know he said that people he he talked about his children when they would play religion. And like how even like his daughter would pretend to pass the sacrament because they were playing at religion and then he said the other religions that aren’t the church of Jesus Christ Latter day saints. They’re all like his children playing at religion which is such a terrible and demeaning thing to say about other people of faith and other people who who devote their lives. To being pastors into being priests and and imams and all the you know rabbis, etc, etc, etc like to to just dismiss them as being playing at religion like you know, do you want somebody with that attitude teaching judaism and. The Gospel or islam in the gospel or comparative religion. You know class if you iu all of these are religion department courses. It’s it’s a problem.

55:52.12
Geoff Openshaw
And no I agree it is and this isn’t to excuse it I think a lot happens though when you’re you know his remarks. He was caught saying were to youth and I think by default we often tried it makes it worse because it was teaching them. But I think I think for some reason the default when trying to reach youth is to pay things a little more black and white.

56:01.69
Jared
That makes it worse.

56:11.53
Geoff Openshaw
And you know not not to so seek the nuance because these are impressionable young minds and we don’t want them thinking. Oh there is truth in all sorts of religions because then they might have the audacity to go and discover one that they like more than ours right? I Think that’s the fear and so they try to say.

56:21.30
Jared
Yeah, and I hear what you’re saying.

56:25.60
Geoff Openshaw
If you if you leave you will lose everything other religions don’t have the truth. We have the truth stay here and the kids will be all revved up and say oh yeah man I’m a 14 year old boy and I am not going to look at porn and I am not going to play with myself and I am going to believe and go forward and um, like I yeah.

56:36.13
Jared
Ah, ah yeah I mean I hear you’re saying I hear you’re saying and and I can see that being like an excuse you could make but and and I know and Brad Wilcotx I don’t know all of his background but I don’t think he went through.

56:42.53
Geoff Openshaw
Like I get it I don’t I don’t agree with it but I get it I think they consider their audience and they try to be less nuanced with.

56:54.43
Jared
I I have very recently been through the entire seminary in institute preservice program and so’m it’s changing again. They’re they’re they’re rearranging some stuff I’ve recently found out but having been through it pretty recently on understanding what they’re emphasizing There’s nothing in there about dumbing things down. Youth or making it black and white or making or taking away nuance like that’s not part of the cess seminary and institute teacher training and so if Brad Wilcox wanted to do that or if he felt like that was something he needed to do for these youth. That’s not something that’s officially part of the process or part of what.

57:19.50
Geoff Openshaw
I know.

57:30.27
Jared
Cs emphasizes should be done for youth. So I hear what you’re saying but I don’t think that’s a good excuse.

57:34.43
Geoff Openshaw
No I don’t think it is either I think it’s this weird approach that there’s like a zerosum approach and that’s what’s going to keep kids in the church and we don’t give youth enough credit especially because the entire idea of come follow me of restructuring our youth classes. All of this is basically demonstrating that we trust them more than we have in the past.

57:39.80
Jared
Yeah.

57:48.16
Jared
Right? And that is it right? No nope yeah and that is a central tenet of the cs system like the the foundational discourse that you know that they’ve used for the last 30

57:51.50
Geoff Openshaw
We trust them more to take ownership but remarks like this are saying like we don’t trust you to think things through and be mature with your gospel study. So.

58:07.35
Jared
40 years to you know this like 1 of the first things they have you read as you’re learning how to be a seminary institute teacher is Jay Ruben Clark’s speech talk called um the charted course for education in the church and one of the things like but that’s always stuck out to me I’ve had to read that thing a few times now and 1 of my favorite lines. Is that he says that you you know that you don’t have to any he says you don’t have to sneak up on the youth and whisper religion in their ear like you can give it to them straight on. Basically it’s what you’re saying this idea that we can trust them to be mature and to be ready to hear and receive and like be like students in a. And good student capacity and I and I feel like a lot of these things that you see like brother Wilcox doing and and other examples of that and we see it often in the church is the equivalent of people kind of sneaking up behind the youth and whispering it in their ears and trying to just like find the 1 weird trick that works for getting youth to love the gospel like you don’t have to find 1 weird trick. The gospel is lovable Jesus Christ is love god is love and and when yeah and when we give them the fruit when we present the embodiment of love to the youth. It is eminently lovable without having to package it in a way that is like well we do it this way. That’s the way they’re gonna we’re gonna hook them and like I understand.

59:07.26
Geoff Openshaw
But yeah, the fruit is good. That’s the idea right? Look That’s what.

59:24.60
Jared
We’re seeing youth and young people leave the church and there’s a lot of reasons that could be but I don’t think for the reason is because we’re not teaching it in a sneaky or catchy enough way, you know so that’s not what said either I Want to say that.

59:32.12
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, so I think what we’ve established here is you are leaving the church because of Brad Wilcox that’s what we’ve I think that’s what we show? Oh it’s you’re good. That’s okay so.

59:41.73
Jared
I know you’re trying to transition I do want to say 1 more thing. Um because we we spent a lot of times speaking about brother Wilcox himself and of course we spent a significant amount of time speaking about the the issue of race and the temple and priesthood. But 1 thing that a few people commenters online. Pointed out was that a lot of people were getting so caught up in that without and kind of ignoring or sweeping aside the issue of what what he addressed about kind of towards and about women and the priesthood and so I don’t want to like leave this with with that same error and again we can’t get. Entirely into it. But I think 1 thing that was good and and you linked us to ah an a an article in the exponent 2 on their website and I think that thought they brought up some really good points so 1 of the points that I think is a good takeaway is again, you know so brother Wilcox his remarks were trying to say that like basically he’s doing the old. Pedestal trick right? that like oh the reason why women don’t need the priest it is because they must have brought something with them from the preexistence that made them so much better than men that men have to get the priest did because we’re catching up and the women are already awesome and they can waltz into the temple as you said and there’s so many problems with that that you know. Pedal stillization is a form of sexism. It’s a form of misogyny and it’s not okay, you know and it’s it’s generally it’s usually a way to sweep under the rug some sort of abuse or or neglect and instead say oh no, we’re not abusing neglecting look how amazing you are. You’re so much better than us. You are continued to be restricted from voting you know like.

01:01:12.69
Geoff Openshaw
But not hey Utah First first in the nation come on come on.

01:01:13.10
Jared
And so right and we talked about that I encourage you everybody to go back and read Ah Nylon Mcbain’s book pioneering the vote or listen to our our our interview with her because we talked about these issues but my point is um unlike the priesthood and temple.

01:01:20.22
Geoff Openshaw
And look listen to our interview with me. Yeah.

01:01:32.14
Jared
Ah, restriction and exclusion which we do know the reasons for and um, you know because straight from the horse’s mouth the horse being Brigham young the the clear the the the plain fact is that with women and the priesthood. We don’t know why. And we can come up with all sorts of reasons. Why but there’s never been an explicit statement from god from Jesus Christ in the in the new testament from any of his latter day representatives. This is the reason why men are adained to the priesthood and women are not the only clear. Statements we have are from people like president oakes who gave that great talk a few years ago but he didn’t say why women don’t have the priest. He talked about everything they can do with priesthood authority, etc, etc, etc. But he did all he said is god has dictated that men are ordained and women are not and there’s not a reason why. And so we do women a disservice and we do ourselves a disservice when we come up with excuses like brother Wilcox did and try to make up a reason the the fact is we don’t have a reason why women are not ordained to the priest did and so let’s not try to pretend like we get it or like it that there’s you know that we can we that we can.

01:02:27.00
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

01:02:40.21
Jared
Explain God’s work for him or alternatively explain the leadership’s decisions you know on their behalf because we just don’t have that answer and that’s what I wanted to say about that.

01:02:49.15
Geoff Openshaw
And now you make me want to go to Sam Brunson’s second article about this as well because Sam had some great thoughts on this and one of the things I could read the whole thing but sorry and by common consent um talking about women being.

01:02:56.76
Jared
This is in by common consent.

01:03:04.42
Geoff Openshaw
Being ordained and one they often say like you said is that women are inherently more righteous than men and don’t need. It is a reason they put out there but god’s given us different gifts. You know we’re different people. There are obviously women and men who are more spiritual than 1 another and all this and that. But I love this He talked to a chinese friend of offenderers of chinese descent who’s not Lds but familiar with the church and he read Wilcox’s remarks and his immediate reaction was this sounds kind of like the gender equivalent of asians are good at math. Said so let’s not asians are good at math women say oh you know women don’t need this because they’re just inherently more spiritual and Sam has some other great remarks because Wilcox Talks you know girls hear some more of the language girls listen closely because I don’t know that you’ll ever have somebody explain it quite this point like again. You have access to every priest of blessing. There is not 1 priest of blessing that you are denied and you serve with priesthood authority true when you are set apart in a class presidency or you’re set apart as a missionary or any other calling in the church you serve with priesthood authority. You will go to go to temples where you will be endowed with priesthood power and you will dress in priest at robes. Sam Thinks says that’s a weak justification for not giving women the priesthood what it amounts to is basically ordination doesn’t matter because like reasons like you said Jared we just we just don’t know and 1 good reminder before we close this part out. He Sam keeps talking. He says 1 thing. That’s the pandemic has kind of laid bare is that. When the churches were shut. There were women who didn’t get take the sacrament for months perhaps and have the priesthood and to be clear you and I aren’t like advocating and saying this has to change media. But what we’re saying is we don’t necessarily have the reasons and while we can say women act as priesthood authority.

01:04:29.41
Jared
Because they didn’t have a priested holder available to them. Yeah.

01:04:41.51
Geoff Openshaw
The bottom line is there are things to which they do not have access if they’re acting singularly and and that a men a man could I mean I know it’s not like kosher per se if you’re alone as a man to like bless the sacrament give it to yourself. But I imagine in ah in ah in a certain situation you you could do that if you needed to. But. You know I agree I don’t like to put the women on the pedestal I love this other story. He talked about he was at a stakeak thing and of course they called a new state president and he said something to the effect of when we choose a state president or is like the 70 s said when we choose a state president. We look for the most spiritual organized person in the steak and then we call her husband and we know that’s men as a joke but that’s like so. Incredibly demeaning and unnecessary stuff.

01:05:19.64
Jared
Um, it is and then if you imagine if you are a person and I’m sure some of our listeners may be a person maybe people with this question but imagine you’re a person who does struggle with this idea of why why women can’t be ordained. Why can’t women serve in priesthood, leadership positions, etc and imagine and then hearing a leader say that and mean it as a joke.

01:05:32.46
Geoff Openshaw
Exactly.

01:05:39.20
Jared
That’s not it would be the opposite of funny to you. You would say hey wait a minute if you’re you know if you’re acknowledging that the the most righteous and organized and best candidate in the whole stake is a woman and saying now. But then you’re going to call her husband. It’s like.

01:05:40.30
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:54.91
Jared
You’re just proving my point you know and and you’re deepening my doubt about in my question about this and so it’s like yeah I I don’t think we should just be playing this off as as a punchline.

01:05:57.76
Geoff Openshaw
And and like what what I mean we shouldn’t I mean would anyone dare do sort of ah a similar phrasing if it was like a racial version instead like going back to blacks in the priesthood be like oh we find the most righteous people in.

01:06:10.45
Jared
Right.

01:06:17.39
Geoff Openshaw
This area but then we make sure to call the white guy because he’s allowed to or something like you would never say that and it could be. It could be just as offensive. It’s terrible. Um, by the way if you are a Byu alumnus and any of the Brad Wilcox situation has concerned you there is the race equity and belonging page at Byu and they actually solicit your feedback and. And they make a point to say you are an alumnus. You don’t have to be actively going there but you can have your concerns. But if you go to race dot b y u dot edu if there’s things you want to express hopefully I’m saying hopefully in a constructive way that can move the needle and share your input There’s a page there and you can fill out a form and submit. Or thoughts I don’t know if they’ll read it if they’ll get back to you or any of those things but there is an outlet for you where they actually encourage your feedback ah not like Salt Lake where they officially say stock talk to your state president even though they keep reading letters from like members during general conference to which.

01:07:05.84
Jared
Right? That’s always confusing to me. You’re only supposed to write to them if you have a faith promoting story. Not if you have like a complaint or concern.

01:07:09.50
Geoff Openshaw
Which then validates the process the the whole idea of writing directly to general authorities. Um.

01:07:16.99
Geoff Openshaw
I guess something like that I’m just gonna throw something out real quick since we’re sort of on b yu b y you magazine and we’re we’re not goingnna go crazy along this week I think we’ve covered good things but b magazine has a I thought interesting Napoleon dynamite retrospective.

01:07:24.87
Jared
Yeah, oh gosh.

01:07:36.50
Geoff Openshaw
It’s been fifteen years fifteen years I think since Napoleon Dynamite took the world by storm and basically it’s an oral history of the creation of deploying dynamite. They talked to all sorts of the people involved in it. You know Jared and jerusalem hehe. Hess who made it you’ve got John Heater various producers and other actors who were involved in it. It’s kind of fun I mean if it’s obviously Napoleon dynamite itself is not a latter-day saint film. But even as the directors said they’re like yeah, you’re pretty sure. Napoleon is a member of the church I mean based on his clothes he lives in Preston Idaho he wears a Rick’s college shirt like it’s clear. The. The characters are mormons in the film but they kind of talk frankly about how like Lds culture especially rural or intermound west lds culture really informed what they did with these characters and you know for many members of the church. It’s a beloved film for a lot of those reasons so it’s kind of a fun that’ll. Little Reid and I appreciated in particular they had a John grease who played uncle Rico 1 of the best characters in the film who was not a member of the church but he spoke very fondly of his time being up there in idaho filming and getting to know like mormon culture better even says he went to church with them every Sunday while they were filming. And observed it and he speaks just very fondly of all of this and I think it’s great that he had this. He didn’t join the church or anything that’s fine, but he had a very positive experience and it like taught him a lot about how he could be even better as an actor and writer and things he could do so anyway, we’ll link to it check it out it’s a good it’s good read I enjoyed it.

01:09:01.56
Jared
Um, I know we’re we’re we’re probably gonna wrap this up but there’s a lot of stories. We haven’t covered but I just we probably just don’t have time too. But you did tease this at the beginning Jeff so I think we cannot keep we cannot keep our listeners in suspense. There is a new desert industries being built.

01:09:05.39
Geoff Openshaw
Um, yeah, yeah I have you have to.

01:09:17.25
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, stop it. So.

01:09:19.26
Jared
And you and and you kept everybody in like you know, just like on tenderhooks just waiting to find out where it is no brothers and sisters and otherwise who are listening to this podcast as we speak The new desert Industries has been dedicated.

01:09:22.12
Geoff Openshaw
Um, is it finally and Gary is Gary Indiana finally getting its due. Ah.

01:09:37.35
Geoff Openshaw
Hello when did D I change their logo by the way that’s new. The typeface the middle of the word. The word bar and all that.

01:09:37.70
Jared
And Tucson Arizona. Ah, oh it was like it was slightly update because like the the little Beehive B Logo looks more or less the same but the typeface is definitely different now. Yeah, it doesn’t even look updated though it looks like they updated it to the 80 s.

01:09:53.77
Geoff Openshaw
I Did a little research though. Oh that’s well, that’s the trend nowadays Meanwhile Pizza Hut reverted back to their ah old logo for example, anyway. Yeah I hope so everyone bad.

01:09:59.68
Jared
Early 90 s.

01:10:03.60
Jared
Ah, yeah, are they are they building them with the funny red Roofs again.

01:10:11.69
Geoff Openshaw
Dine in pizza Huts Those are those were that that was a unicorn right there.

01:10:12.83
Jared
The pizza hut that’s on the that was on the road on on on west glebe. Um, you know to like on right at the intersection like West Glebe and South Glebe they they but right before we moved they were like totally.

01:10:21.32
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah I know the way to talking about? Yep Yep yep, that’s what.

01:10:28.44
Jared
Like remodeled and retrofitted it and took away that weird red roof look and they made it tried to to tried to make it more modern looking I Guess um and so I just think it’s interesting that they were going back to like the classic logos and stuff that Well why are you modernizing.

01:10:31.80
Geoff Openshaw
Oh that’s half the front.

01:10:40.46
Geoff Openshaw
You love my digressions. There’s a great There’s a great Youtube channel called company man and it’s a guy who just provides like little essays about like the history of interesting companies and some recall like the rise and fall or the rise again of different organizations. He did a video on pizza and it’s pretty interesting to like kind of go through their history of where they came from and their branding efforts and how how. Dominoes and Papa Johns started gobbling up their market share but especially Domino’s in the past ten years when they kind of reinvented themselves. Go check it out folks. Maybe I’ll put it there. It’s been.

01:11:05.43
Jared
I would also recommend while we’re on this this went random tangent. There is a Twitter account called used to be a pizza hut and it consists entirely of photographs of businesses that are not pizza huts but it clearly used to be a pizza hut. It’s also like the Hashtag is bootbaff.

01:11:16.23
Geoff Openshaw
That we’re clearly it’s.

01:11:22.85
Jared
Used to be a pizza huff. Anyway, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the equivalent there’s yeah, but there was a whole like 99% invisible episode about used to be a pizza hut and and so I follow them on Twitter and it’s quite entertaining because you’ll see like car dealerships or insurance agencies or whatever that are housed in these buildings that quite obviously.

01:11:24.58
Geoff Openshaw
It’s also like um, used to be a Taco Bell there were those taco bells the eightyings that look like the mission style. Yeah, you can always do those? no.

01:11:41.66
Jared
But pizza huts in the 80 s anyway.

01:11:43.50
Geoff Openshaw
That’s so funny I love it. Um, good 1 thing about the d I I was curious about where d eyes are located because I mean toson like okay, that’s only the fourth one in Arizona but the other ones are up in the phoenix area but there’s basically yeah.

01:11:52.13
Jared
I was gonna say I remember going to d I while I was on my mission in Phoenix. So.

01:11:58.38
Geoff Openshaw
There’s nothing east of the rockies except there’s one in Houston and that’s it. There’s nothing past that in terms of d I don’t know why they don’t try to like go you know expand more into the rest of the country. It’s not like we ah don’t have there’s competition. But that’s what I mean there’s a market for thrift stores and things.

01:12:09.14
Jared
I Would love to see like ah, an old timey looking D I in navi you know, just put it put it put it next to the old browning rifle shop have a desert Industries thrift store.

01:12:14.41
Geoff Openshaw
That would be fun I’d love I’d love to have it? Well what I love about Di compared I mean a lot of thrift stores are based on it with charitable organizations and do good things but di focuses a lot of vocational training on trying to help people not their their employees actually develop skills and get up on their feet.

01:12:33.29
Jared
Yep.

01:12:33.80
Geoff Openshaw
Oftentimes through difficult circumstances’s not strictly just a thrift store for money like there’s there’s a mission there and so I think it’s good and I think we should have have more of them. Ah, 1 other quick thing I want to bring up. Um, do you remember six months ago when they told us they were getting rid of the priesthood and women’s sessions in general conference.

01:12:47.96
Jared
I do.

01:12:51.60
Geoff Openshaw
Oh Jared I think you got gobbledyook on me there you there you go um and we were all like that’s kind of curious. What are they gonna do instead and they just did another general session and I think the consensus from everyone is pure anecdotal. Everyone come to feel like that was kind of a lot.

01:12:53.62
Jared
Oh I said I do I do remember that.

01:13:10.10
Geoff Openshaw
In terms of general sessions. Well for whatever reason and they’ll never tell us why the church has announced with the upcoming April general conference. Will once again have a women’s session. They did not say if October will have a priesthood session. We don’t know yet but they will have the women’s session the same thing as before you know, ages what 8 and up 12 and up actually forgot which one they said they’ve they’ve moved around a little bit. About the age that should attend the women’s session. But even though before the exact language about why they got rid of the sessions was because where was it is pretty funny because they said do to do where did I write that. Basically they said because ah because ah, ah, all sessions of general conference are now available to anyone who desires to watch or listen. Just got rid of a specialized session in terms of what kind of content’s offered and apparently they’re changing their mind on that. So. There’ll be a women’s session in April I sure did jared.

01:13:56.38
Jared
You’re right? But as you point out in the twin article I Think did you write the twin article right? this one? Yeah, okay as you pointed out I don’t Why is that an excuse like just because everyone can watch it does that mean we.

01:14:06.48
Geoff Openshaw
It’s not It’s not. That that very notion would mean like ah would mean all of Youtube should be the same thing on every channel like it’s like what you know.

01:14:09.84
Jared
Can’t have specialized content that everybody can watch like well since everybody can watch general conference. We shouldn’t be specifically talking about the church of Jesus Christ latter a saints in the gospel of Jesus Christ we should be talking about. Every topic in the world. It shouldn’t be specialized like I mean it’s just yeah I mean I’m obviously taking it to the absurd extreme. But ah yeah, yeah, no, no yeah to to me.

01:14:27.74
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, it’s it’s weird. Oh yeah, it was it was weird rationale in the first place I have to imagine they got they got feedback whether it was solicited or not or maybe maybe they I never saw it if any surveys went out about it but they probably did and said.

01:14:41.27
Jared
The excuse I mean it. It is not quite the same but it felt along the same lines of quality as like we don’t sell caffeine on byu campus because there isn’t a demand for it that it felt it feels like 1 of those explanations where it’s sort of like um I know you think that’s an explanation but I don’t think it. It’s so I don’t know.

01:14:49.43
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:58.29
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, that’s fair.

01:15:00.46
Jared
Ah, yeah, but who knows it’s a mystery and we’ll never know the answer but women’s session is back and who knows like you said they I don’t think they made it clear whether or not it will be ongoing. They didn’t make it clear whether or not we would be having a preset session in October One thing that’s interesting is if we do do that you know for the last several years where we had a priested session 1 1 conference and a women’s session the other conference preset session was always in April and I always thought that was on purpose I mean I probably read too much into it but I was like you know restoration you know the gospel restoration the priesthood is in the spring priested sessions in the spring I mean again I’m probably reading.

01:15:23.18
Geoff Openshaw
Oh ever thought of it. Yeah.

01:15:31.25
Geoff Openshaw
A we barely even know when the Melchazig priesthood was restored So yeah and.

01:15:35.81
Jared
I read there was a really good milk. Ah a really good enzy article a few years ago where they they narrowed it down pretty well based on like you know, just contextual evidence and they they they nailed narrowed it down to like a two week period anyway it’s probably late spring early summer. But yes, yes.

01:15:43.72
Geoff Openshaw
Yes, yes, and and Willard Richards murdered Joseph Smith sure all these all these 1 other curious thing though in this. Oh.

01:15:55.71
Jared
It’s conspiracy they what? but but what what I was going to say is it I mean I was probably reading too much into the whole like preset session is April thing but it just would be interesting if we went to now presets or is in October and when sessions in April is like it doesn’t really matter. We just have sessions when we have them.

01:16:09.57
Geoff Openshaw
We just do them when we have them if anything I think it’s.

01:16:12.88
Jared
Or maybe it maybe it’ll just be ad hoc in the you know and maybe like we now we do whim session and then for the next two conferences we do combined sessions and then all let’ do a priested session and maybe we’ll just.

01:16:20.16
Geoff Openshaw
I could do without the combined it was. It was almost weird just like saddling up on Saturday night and being like it’s just you know here’s ours 5 and six five and 6 of more more content. Did you know this as well though in the announcement they so they’re going to allow people to attend general conference in person again, they said that there’s going to be a limited number.

01:16:25.90
Jared
With just one more session. Yeah.

01:16:35.38
Jared
Oh.

01:16:39.70
Geoff Openshaw
Will give out tickets to state presidents in the United States and Canada but very limited. They didn’t specify how limited that will be if it’s social distancing if whatever it is I’m not quite sure I mean the conference center holds about 20000 people so I don’t know what divisible of that it would be but the funny thing is the reason they say they make no mention of covid they don’t say.

01:16:55.45
Jared
Right.

01:16:58.10
Geoff Openshaw
For safety measures. They just say because of all the construction on and around Temple Square they’re limiting the number of people who can attend which okay, but okay.

01:17:02.96
Jared
And to be fair to be fair so I was recently in Salt Lake I went down to Utah last month to help my mom out with some stuff and I went up my cousin works in the church office building and I met up with him for lunch and so I went and. Parked underneath. It. Well let’s see well he doesn’t work at the church office building. He currently works in the Joseph Smith Memorial building whatever it’s all on the same block anyway. So I parked underneath the Joseph Smith Memorial building but as I was driving up I looked over at temple square and it was unrecognizable to me like the tabernacles there and the assembly hall is there.

01:17:24.20
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

01:17:32.40
Geoff Openshaw
Oh yeah.

01:17:37.27
Jared
And then you could just see clear through over to the conference center. Everything else is just completely raised to the ground and flattened and everything is just in disarray and and under construction. So like it’s not ah, it’s not not an excuse to have a limited because I’m sure parking is limited I’m sure. Mobility like the ability to physically walk from 1 place to another on and around temple square is has been severely limited. So like you know I mean it is a viable excuse. But yeah, but like I said it’s interesting that on top of that they they kind of ignored and forgot to mention that oh yeah, and there’s still a global pandemic.

01:17:56.31
Geoff Openshaw
Um, and I think that’s the big one like between stations. It’s yeah so.

01:18:14.50
Jared
That’s raging throughout the world especially in Utah and I know so yeah.

01:18:17.58
Geoff Openshaw
I was surprised um I know we’ve run long. We had a handful interesting byu stories but we don’t have time for all them. You.

01:18:22.88
Jared
You know what cover cover of that or maybe let’s hold a special session Jeff will make it. We’ll make this week a twofer I’m I’m I’m game if you are ah.

01:18:29.55
Geoff Openshaw
Stop it Jared stop it. You sure you don’t want to talk about even the one that you put up there. Okay, we don’t have to. It’s fine.

01:18:34.91
Jared
I just don’t think I want to but I don’t think we have the time to give it like yeah like I I if we were gonna talk about it and that one also I think like ties directly into like 3 other stories that are that are pending as well and so I don’t want to like just.

01:18:39.25
Geoff Openshaw
So we’re at an hour and twenty. So yeah, you know.

01:18:54.33
Jared
You know brush it off and say here’s what happened and we’re not going to talk about it I feel like all of those stories deserve some attention. So if you can get them in next week do if not I’m up for a special episode whenever you whenever you want to Jeff yeah.

01:18:59.13
Geoff Openshaw
All right.

01:19:06.50
Geoff Openshaw
The special session just more of more of we had to do this more like Joe Rogan man where we just go on for like 3 hours and don’t care. Are you sure.

01:19:12.90
Jared
I don’t want to do anything more like Joe Rogan Jeff unless and unless I get to star in a sitcom with Stephen Root then then I would like to be more like Joe Joe Rogan I love Steven root.

01:19:22.78
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, it’s funny to think about his stephen roots. Great news radio. What a classic. What a strange little program that was strange little program and we folks.

01:19:30.45
Jared
I Love it. It’s so good anyway.

01:19:36.50
Geoff Openshaw
Speaking up Joe Rogan though I said it last week and he was a Spotify and so do we you can leave us at least a star review on there if you’re a Spotify listener. Believe us review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts please become a supporter on http://patreonpatreon.com/thisweek in mormons and be part of the team that makes twin possible. You find folks over there. So charitable so giving so kind so loving. Um and we’re we really appreciate it. So thanks for taking the time to tune in everybody Jared. Thanks for being here man it’s good to see you appreciate the discussion. So ah, tell with me to get everybody. This has been another edition of this week in mormons we’ll talk to you soon. Take care have a good week bye bye.

01:20:03.95
Jared
I’m glad to be here.

 

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