EP 590 – Patriotism at Church

TWiM_EP590_Patriotism_at_Church_LDS
Is Patriotism replacing actual worship in our congregations?

To our listeners in the United States, we hope you had a terrific Fourth of July! Only a few more years until the semiquincentennial. Let’s hope we make it that long! Kurt Francom of Leading Saints is back with us to kick off the second half of 2022.

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Transcript

00:00.00
Geoff Openshaw
Everybody welcome to this week in mormons the premiere latter day saint focus podcast on news and news primarily just this week because we don’t have any guests on. Glad you’re here though, please review this in Itunes most stilted delivery ever I’m Geoff Openshaw.

00:14.14
Kurt Francom
And I’m Kurt Frankham I thought that was a beautiful opening Geoff did see the thing with podcasts is that most people listen to them sped up and everything sounds better sped up so regardless of how you felt it went.

00:17.78
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, it was sure Yes, it.

00:30.17
Kurt Francom
Think most people didn’t even notice if it was mediocre. Um.

00:30.89
Geoff Openshaw
I would like to survey twins listeners about whether they listen to this sped up or not I imagine my analytics might show something to that I speed mine up to but I’m a bit of a fast talker I try to rein it in but when I get going I’m kind of a fast talker to begin with. So if you start putting that at 1.5 speed

00:47.68
Kurt Francom
Should we see how fast we can talk to this one Geoff and just says they’ll slow down I listen to mine at to 2 double speed. You know? So yeah, that’s just that my intellect I’m sorry I just just how my brain works.

00:48.58
Geoff Openshaw
Don’t know if you can follow. Let’s say we do that. Let’s see we can do best possibly fast as possibly can yes, let us do everything as quickly and squeling possible. Well well kudos here and you just and you just listen to yourself apparently which I don’t really.

01:05.33
Kurt Francom
That’s right I when I’m on twin I do not listen to the the the post I always download it because I want to give you that you know that download marker. But ah yeah.

01:07.40
Geoff Openshaw
Care to do very much. Ah, yeah.

01:14.40
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and because when you download it. The internet feels that you’ve done it So others want more people wind up to it’s happening. Yeah sure something like that great.

01:20.14
Kurt Francom
Yeah, it’s weird. It’s this weird karma that’s in the in the the universe of the internet. Yeah happy happy independence day Geoff how I know.

01:33.41
Geoff Openshaw
Thank you sir! That’s why we are a little bit later this week is that we were going to record on the fourth of July no way wasn’t going to happen.

01:39.30
Kurt Francom
Had fireworks to go to and you you had to set up your blanket in the and the at the mall in Dc and.

01:44.00
Geoff Openshaw
We did not go to the mall. It’s fun to do. But you’ve got to you’ve got to commit and spend the whole day out. Oh sometimes at least I mean it’s not just the fireworks. There’s usually there’s festivals. There’s all kinds of things going on all day. So it’s a full day. It’s a lot of fun but you’re out there. You’re.

01:50.29
Kurt Francom
Um, like couple hours early. Oh okay.

02:01.15
Geoff Openshaw
Pretty exposed. There’s trees on the mall. But unless you’re camped out underneath one here in the sun all day on a big giant pedestrian esplanade of grass but it is a fun thing. Everyone should do at least once if you come to Dc if you live in the Dc area and the fireworks are great. I mean it’s a lot of fun 1 year I got to go to the balcony on the daughters of the american revolution building and watch him from there which was a really cool point of view that was a fun memory. Yeah well, um, since we had a a pancake breakfast per tradition in our ward as you know because we should.

02:23.22
Kurt Francom
Wow. Well so what did you end up doing for the None I Love that your word like is it the young man the the young women or.

02:37.33
Geoff Openshaw
Well, it’s ah it’s still basically the elders quorum. We resurrected our activities committee a few months ago we actually have 1 again in a chair. But so we deferred to them but said this one’s kind of always been like an elders quorum gig but they worked with them and got it all done and ah.

02:42.37
Kurt Francom
Nice.

02:54.61
Geoff Openshaw
It was what it usually is the None main thing that differentiates it from a lot of pancake breakfasts I hear about is we always do a quote unquote parade where all the kids are encouraged to show up and decorate whether it’s scooters or bikes or trikes or whatever it might be to to decorate those things in patriotic regalia and then they have a what. Quote unquote parade which is just going in kind of an oval for a while in the back parking lot but the kids have fun with it. It’s just like the thing you do for the first half hour and kind of have a laugh and ah, that’s the thing and then we just eat. We always do. We never do like a flag ceremony and no one’s ever done patriotic remarks I’ve seen that I’ve had that in other wards. But that’s.

03:20.29
Kurt Francom
Yeah.

03:31.69
Kurt Francom
Yeah, nice. Ah well I got done with a family reunion this past. Ah this past weekend and so that was sort of yeah it was an in-law family union as well. So you know you get to stand there and you really don’t know anybody and.

03:34.26
Geoff Openshaw
Not a thing we’ve done in ours. What about you.

03:42.37
Geoff Openshaw
I’m sorry yeah.

03:50.84
Kurt Francom
Should I invest in in learning more about these people I don’t know I guess I should right? That’s right asks for donations for now. My nonprofit things like that now but is actually at the heber ah camp that the church owns where they do girls camp things there and come on.

03:51.74
Geoff Openshaw
You got a network man you got a network That’s what it’s all about.

04:04.85
Geoff Openshaw
Sure sure yeah like I know what this is I don’t live in Inter Mountain west curd I went to be why you that was it.

04:09.11
Kurt Francom
You if you’ve been there, you know and it’s this. It’s this huge camp that the church has invested millions of dollars into and all these missionaries are there with their rvs and satellite dishes on top of their are yes, these are senior missionaries.

04:22.82
Geoff Openshaw
Missionaries have ah rvs. Oh you’ve got to put that identifier upfront. Okay I mean Senior Missionaries go to the movies. They do whatever they want. It’s It’s totally different. Okay, okay.

04:27.58
Kurt Francom
Well, that’s true, right? Yeah, it’s kind of a sweet gig though I think they go there for the summer and set up camp and you know facilitate the girls camps that come through and then these random family reunions and so I was there and by the time. We got back. You know by the time the fourth rent rolled around. We thought you know we’re going to stay home drive out to Grantsville which is about 10 minute drive from where I met and and small town watch the fireworks. It was awesome. My car was like a hundred feet from where we later blanket down. We watched them.

04:50.49
Geoff Openshaw
No yeah.

05:02.17
Kurt Francom
A little bit of traffic. We had nothing crazy and we drove home and Boom put the kids in bed done.

05:05.99
Geoff Openshaw
That sounds likeable I did not see a large fireworks show we after after the pancake stuff we ah we went up to Mount Vernon George Washington’s estate just to know you know you know I live in DC and you know and like this is things we have here. No big deal.

05:13.40
Kurt Francom
Um I don’t know I don’t know I I live in the Internermount West I don’t know what.

05:22.84
Geoff Openshaw
So we went to Mount Vernon which is which I’ve been to on the fourth before it’s it’s arguably 1 of the busiest days of the year there it’s the only other busy day is like president’s day in Washington’s birthday because a mission is free on those days. But they do. They do a lot of stuff. You know they’ve got people dressed up like redcoats and and colonial militias and this and that and playing patriotic songs and all this kind of stuff the actor who cause plays as George Washington for a living is usually lurking about the grounds. He’s very good. Ah.

05:46.72
Kurt Francom
Nice So is he like an employee of the the place. Okay, okay.

05:53.24
Geoff Openshaw
Yes, yeah, he’s not just like a guy who shows up because he thinks it’s fun and there’s also a Martha Washington but 1 thing that’s interesting is they do daytime fireworks which were isn’t just for the novelty. This was a thing back in the eighteenth century and so from the Potomac.

06:05.29
Kurt Francom
Oh nice like high up in the sky fireworks. Okay, ah.

06:09.95
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, like a mix of stuff ah stuff. Yeah, like pretty typical fireworks and so they usually shoot them from a barge just off the shore in the Potomac River just on the east lawn of the the estate of the home and so you get to see all that and it’s kind of fun and we had a fun little day. My cousins met us there and tour that.

06:24.69
Kurt Francom
Um, your kids loved it.

06:28.26
Geoff Openshaw
We toured the house saw some bands my kids and enlisted in the militia to fight off the british I kept trying to get I asked my oldest repeatedly because there were a bunch of redcoats and I was like run up to them and say and yell down with the tyranny of King George

06:43.50
Kurt Francom
Ah, no.

06:44.77
Geoff Openshaw
And I told him I would buy him any Lego set he wanted I was like I’m telling you I’m like there is no cost limit any Lego set you want I will buy it if you run up there and yell at them you want he want to do it. It was kind of I know right? which I thought about quoting when I myself.

06:52.69
Kurt Francom
Um, and he didn’t take yeah you got to teach him a Hamilton song and then you know just that that would be the cool way to.

07:03.78
Geoff Openshaw
Got to talk to the George Washington actor as he was about. We took a picture with them and then I was wearing my angels baseball cap and so he looked at it and he’s always in character guy never breaks ever.

07:11.90
Kurt Francom
Um, right.

07:15.44
Geoff Openshaw
And he says ah it’s like that’s an interesting insignia on your on your hat like from which army is that which unit are you with and I’m quickly scrambling thinking him ahead I’m like all right Angelo I was like ah Alta California um Spain I am from Spain. And and he’s like oh where in Spain and I was like mission san juan capistranno does that ring any bells and the guys just like rolls with it I should have like done something I should have just walked up to him been like you were great in Hamilton you were just terrific. Ah, anyways, it’s just fun, big, big silly stuff. So good. Fourth.

07:45.14
Kurt Francom
Um, ah, nice. Yeah, hey you know it’s part of it’s part of our ah you know, just our our Dna Geoff

07:52.60
Geoff Openshaw
We can do fire I don’t know why fireworks illegal in Utah you guys burned the state down every year but ah.

08:03.42
Kurt Francom
Ah, human being has to blow something up to celebrate.

08:04.57
Geoff Openshaw
I remember that bad wildfire which I think started from the fourth I think you know the ah the mountain opposite Utah lake over by saratoka springside. That’s very brushy. The whole thing went ablaze like 2007 and and John Huntsman was governor and he was like hey.

08:12.59
Kurt Francom
Um, okay, well you know it needs a redo Anyways right.

08:23.28
Geoff Openshaw
How about stop lighting things on fire. Please.

08:23.37
Kurt Francom
I Always I Always appreciate the passive aggressive guilt trips. We get from our governor every year like okay, please no serious guys. Could we just do this like whatever. So.

08:34.28
Geoff Openshaw
I think they’re trying to tow that line socially since ah, not all of them Million Huntsman was raised Lds but he’s not practicing but you know sometimes I think they’re trying to lean on the whole teach you correct principles and let you govern yourselves and then they’re trying not to deviate from that but in their minds are just like.

08:39.79
Kurt Francom
Um, right right.

08:51.77
Geoff Openshaw
Don’t like want to regulate these people. But um I mean think about all the grid.

08:51.82
Kurt Francom
Right? Yeah, that’s why I always go to these firework shows that are approved and have fire fighters on staff. So yeah, yeah.

09:01.46
Geoff Openshaw
Which is and that’s smart right? That’s smart I mean lighten stuff up in your neighborhood. It could be risky. There’s definite. You know in in the dry west they they ban fireworks ah back home in California when I was a kid which was a but I have memories as a child of actually going them to the stands and buying them then they all went away and.

09:12.89
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah.

09:19.87
Geoff Openshaw
I don’t get it I mean in the hills sure but like I just grew up in the concrete jungle I don’t see what I would have set on fire but fine, whatever whatever oh 1 thing Kurt I would love to ask about this sort of popped up and it really seemed to have struck a chord.

09:25.40
Kurt Francom
Right.

09:36.37
Geoff Openshaw
With a lot of folks following us on social media in general. Um, and by the way struck a chord was not a deliberate pun. But I’m happy to be here. So ah in my ward. We did not do any patriotic type music at all and that just did not happen this sunday.

09:36.68
Kurt Francom
To say the least Geoff you got 500 plus comments on this post hey nailed it.

09:53.38
Kurt Francom
Um, we definitely did just for reference.

09:54.66
Geoff Openshaw
Um, when I saw that but and when I saw the chosen hymns as I am in the bishopric I just chose to say okay music director is doing doing what the music director does I’m not going to like make an issue out of anything like I don’t care and so we didn’t do it. And so I thought about this and I’ve realized I’ve seen a slight growing trend in recent years of folks who don’t think we should sing patriotic songs in sacrament meeting anymore those who like adamantly think we do and those who just kind of say well yeah I mean it’s cool. It’s in the hymbook if you do it? Whatever if we don’t whatever. Um, so we just put that out on our Facebook page basically saying like should we have these in sacrament meeting. I’m like shocked by the response though we’ve had a lot of controversial stuff in 13 years of doing this and and like this is the thing people that gets all of your comments I guess so go figure I I don’t know that there that there absolutely was.

10:30.16
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah.

10:36.73
Kurt Francom
So what was the general consensus you picked up from reading through some of these.

10:47.12
Geoff Openshaw
Full consensus. Ah you saw most of them so different mixes. There’s people who say well they’re in the hymnbook so sure and I say currently that is fair because they are in the hymnbook in the english hymnbook the national anthem of the United States is in that hymnbook if you live in other anglophone countries you get an insert in the back page of your national anthem. But you still get to have America’s national anthem in yours because it makes you’re not going to print one different version with different national anthems for New Zealand and Australia and Canada and I get it all that stuff. Um, but by the same token. The church has publicly disclosed like four years ago that national anthems will not be in the upcoming new hymnbook they have said that publicly. National anthems. They did not say whether there won’t be patriotic songs like America the beautiful or others like that. But at least national anthems won’t be a part of it I think that move makes sense just because you know we’re we’re an international church. Why are we singing the national song of different countries. We’re in you can totally get that argument and then some people. Really leaned on that saying we are an international church. We don’t need to worry about this. Some people said along the lines of just that like worshiping I go to church to worship Christ that is why I’m there for that to and that’s that’s the focus I could spend all my time outside of church worshipping a country.

12:01.77
Kurt Francom
Here.

12:02.93
Geoff Openshaw
That’s fine. So it’s a bit of a mix a healthy mix I Don’t believe there’s a single consensus I don’t know if anyone’s right or wrong. But um I do think it’s interesting that people really do feel passionately about the subject.

12:12.50
Kurt Francom
Yeah, and I think it’s just I get it I think it’s easy context you know on the independence day to talk about. You know what? the content is the focus of our meetings are but um. I mean we’re not outside of independence day here in the u s I don’t think we’re just in my experience generally speaking I don’t think we’re hitting the the focus on Christ much at all I mean we there’s this feeling especially during mother’s day. Father’s day to me. It’s like. Get rid of all of them like let’s just be at church on you know when we’re at church and if it’s mother’s day. Great. You know cook your mother dinner that night and do it but to have this sort of overt recognition and the treat and I mean these traditions just like get rid of them. You know, but ah so to me the discussion needs to begin just with.

12:52.20
Geoff Openshaw
Ah.

13:04.87
Kurt Francom
What are we doing in general with our sacrament meetings. Let alone on Independence day. So I I don’t think we’re doing well the rest of the year either I don’t know no I think.

13:11.37
Geoff Openshaw
Oh so you’re against this kurt you you a a flag a flag carrying Mike Lee loving republican do not want this? yeah.

13:19.85
Kurt Francom
I think these these hymns I hope they continue and I don’t see ah a place for it. But it’s the ah you know because to me it’s a form of it’s a form of worship and and obviously there’s texa. That’s very you know focused on god and whatnot. Um, but yeah I mean if we if we go through if we’re just having a. You know if a few talks about the founding fathers and whatnot like yeah we’re missing the Mark right? that it’s the redemptive power of christ that that that we should focus on rather than the redemptive power that influenced men that then influenced a you know, ah process of independence and constitution and you know.

13:56.36
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I I had Liz on last weekend and we kind of mentioned this I didn’t get many responses from people. But so I don’t to hit on it. But I did think it was it makes me think those discussions about how if there are any individuals who have sort of.

13:58.27
Kurt Francom
So on and so forth. But.

14:11.88
Geoff Openshaw
Stepped away from church because they have I don’t know a faith crisis but struggle with their testimony because they come to believe that America is not like this foreordained like land that it like the kind of like parts of constitution are not inspired I could see people believing that in good faith like loving our country but saying like dude like the constitution as written.

14:20.93
Kurt Francom
Um.

14:30.86
Kurt Francom
Um, and it.

14:31.39
Geoff Openshaw
Back Then it’s wrong. So how can we say that all of this was inspired. How can that be a doctrine of the church ergo. How can I believe in this thing and now my faith is shaken I’ve never met anyone who’s who’s gone through that but I see it as a little different from having being rocked by any other number of.

14:37.88
Kurt Francom
Um, right.

14:45.55
Geoff Openshaw
Random bits of of doctrine and culture that seep through and you take issue with but.

14:46.12
Kurt Francom
yeah yeah I would yes, there’s probably a few that maybe that’s been the core issue but it’s you know one of many that they throw on top of other struggles that they as they they strive to find their place there but to me it goes back to just the framing and I see this in. In other contexts where people it’s not necessarily the truth or what they believe or what they think the church believes but just how they framed it all together. It just has a it’s maybe too rigid and at some point that will break and then what do you have left right? and so that’s why if we can keep coming back to the redemptive power of Jesus Christ like that will never break.

15:16.12
Geoff Openshaw
Mm.

15:23.56
Kurt Francom
And there’s and if we get we show up to church and leave feeling like I feel I better understand the the personal redemption I’ve received from the savior then I’m going to show up next week because that is refueling That’s re-energizing rather than okay we discussed a bunch of things that yes some are true. Some maybe I don’t agree with and.

15:39.76
Geoff Openshaw
No well and you raise an interesting point too because it’s like it’s not to say it’s inherently bad even if you had talks or lessons on on you know the divine nature of the founding of the United States if you wanted to okay but like you said if I came to church I had a ben for a while and that’s what it was about.

15:42.70
Kurt Francom
Maybe I’ll come next week you know.

15:50.35
Kurt Francom
Um, you know.

15:55.80
Kurt Francom
Um, right.

15:57.76
Geoff Openshaw
Have been like dude I could have gone to like a rotary club meeting for this kind of stuff. Why am I is is that going to boost my my faith in the savior and in the atonement and that’s not to knock it but I just don’t know if it would like you said it’s ah.

16:00.30
Kurt Francom
Yeah, yeah.

16:09.80
Kurt Francom
And and with a independence day I think it’s even a more perfect storm because you know it’s July fourth which is typically going to be around the None Sunday which is that fast and testimony meeting right? So it’s open mic and you’re gonna get people who are seeing an opportunity of oh I’m gonna go.

16:20.30
Geoff Openshaw
The.

16:27.44
Kurt Francom
You know, talk about my patriotism whatnot. Which okay if that’s where you feel connection to god and you know, maybe there’s a way to do that. But again you know, hopefully there’s a overt message of Jesus Christ and his redemptive power.

16:39.49
Geoff Openshaw
Moment hope we didn’t really get much of that. But we also gave way a ton of the meeting for some people to recap camp that had youth camp that had happened the week before they actually combined it with genders which was a pretty big deal. It’s what the kids wanted to do so.

16:51.51
Kurt Francom
Yeah, another great example of the with the best intentions here. We are thinking well we’re talking about a church experience and maybe there was Testimony Bill here like again, we’re not talking about the camp. We’re talking about Jesus Christ and how he changes us individually now if that happened in the context of a camp great. You know, share that. But.

17:09.50
Geoff Openshaw
And I think there’re largely. They’re there largely was but things can veer into you know travel monies let me ask you 1 other question then as first testimonies go Kurt you’ve been in a leadership position many times I’m curious about your your thoughts here a few times. Oh I know I know.

17:10.99
Kurt Francom
Sometimes we we go too far. Yep oh boy. Ah yeah, have I mentioned that Geoff I’ve been a bishop I don’t know if you knew that. But yeah.

17:24.80
Geoff Openshaw
I Just got really excited when they put me the bishop because finally and like all the time I’ve known you we are finally the same rank in terms of priesthood right? This is this is the important thing Actually that’s not true because you are also an ordained bishop and I am not I’m merely a high priest very sad. So ah, how do you feel about.

17:27.98
Kurt Francom
Right? Yeah, that’s right.

17:38.49
Kurt Francom
Someday. Geoff.

17:43.10
Geoff Openshaw
If someone’s moving out of the world who’s been prominent. Perhaps if they’ve been in they’re they’re not moving. They’re not like currently in a leadership position like in a bishop brick and they are and this is like there last Sunday they’re released and they’re moving in the and and this and that but what if they have been in the past they’re notable members of the wars they’re going to be moving and so the. The the leadership says like we should have them the husband and wife bear their testimonies on fast Sunday and on paper I don’t necessarily think that’s bad at all. But the only reason I ask you about it is what if you do it for this people. But you’re not like doing that for.

18:04.13
Kurt Francom
Um, a.

18:16.44
Geoff Openshaw
Any other award members who you know are leaving of like another family left the week before we had this very thing this last Sunday I love the people who are leaving dearly they were invited by their testimonies and that could have been as the spirit dictates that’s fine, but like the week prior and it was in other families last Sunday and we had didn’t ask any of them to bear their testimonies or to take time or do anything like that.

18:30.88
Kurt Francom
Here.

18:34.70
Geoff Openshaw
What What do you? do you think you should do the the I I was thinking about you during this because you and I talked about how when I was called to the bishopric. Um I didn’t even like I wasn’t like called to the stand afterwards or anything like that and you kind of remember and you I thought was up this is fine but you kind of said to me privately they’re like well good like you’re not, You’re like not more special than other people. They don’t do this for like the primary.

18:44.50
Kurt Francom
Oh yeah. Um, right? right? Oh right? Oh man I have so many unpopular opinions in this realm one being that I don’t I do not think anybody younger than None maybe should.

18:54.18
Geoff Openshaw
Second counselor which I which I can agree with so like do you think we should do that if people are leaving.

19:07.33
Kurt Francom
Given the opportunity to share a testimony in a fast testimony meeting but we can discuss that a later point. But yeah, ah to me this is a an example of and I I guess I’ve never experienced this in award. But to me it sounds like a I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened where we just get away and I think it goes back to just. How we understand testimony meaning and how we frame a testimony and what is a testimony we often at least when I think of a testimony I think of the many stories of individuals standing and testifying of truth or a doctrinal fact right? that Christ lives that Joseph Smith was a prophet and whatnot and.

19:37.47
Geoff Openshaw
No.

19:44.78
Kurt Francom
I get that tradition but I think we would be better better off if we reframed what we’re trying to do where we’re creating a space where individuals can come and not necessarily share their testimony but share how Jesus Christ has changed them personally like is the articulate the change that you’ve experienced right? and. If we stay in that realm we are going to have more uplifting edifying testimonies that actually impact somebody when they hear it like we had a great testimony this past Sunday where an individual got up and talked about how she was recently. Ah, diagnosed as bipolar and it was just this heart wrenching like as she’s grappling with her faith and everything and everybody’s leaning in and she’s talking about this journey. She’s on that is changing her and so yeah I would say you know. Probably wouldn’t do the farewell Testimony during testimony meeting I think if we create this space and respect the boundaries of that space. But it’s hard because sometimes it’s like well what if nobody gets up or what if that times used as a travel money instead. It’s like well that’s why I have to set clear boundaries and expectations.

20:44.00
Geoff Openshaw
No.

20:49.75
Kurt Francom
The leaders do right? as they start that meeting off.

20:50.62
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, so what? if the content’s okay, though, it’s just like I’m thinking, but it’s the notion of do you do you single people out just because they are leaving.

20:59.60
Kurt Francom
Yeah to me I guess if there’s any hint of like if someone stood up be like well this is our last Sunday we’re here to say goodbye like wait a minute timeout testimonies or Testimony means not a platform to people say goodbye. So if you want them to speak or something like ask them to speak in sacray or whatnot. But.

21:17.43
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, no, it’s not.

21:18.53
Kurt Francom
Anyways I mean not that I would be completely offended or whatever. But again, it’s just these little steps these little nuances that over time take us away from the true purpose of these meetings.

21:27.22
Geoff Openshaw
You know and it was good in general but for me between that and then some of the camp stuff. We wound up with very little time for regular members of the ward to get up and just bear their test and we even asked youth if they would come talk about like their camp experience in this and that um.

21:37.38
Kurt Francom
And.

21:43.80
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah.

21:46.80
Geoff Openshaw
Which not even did so so I don’t know so now that I set up there like I’m thinking about like I’m thinking more about how Sacckra meaning going. It’s I’m in a position to move that more than I was before like this is all my mind a lot like what can we do to have really worthwhile and impactful Saccharra meetings and and and I’m sure you’ve been there as a bishop you see that.

21:50.50
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah, yeah.

22:04.19
Geoff Openshaw
Sometimes you might have a talk that you think is useful for the ward and you get a bunch of blowback from people because of X Y Z and you know hurt Egos all kinds of stuff and it’s funny.

22:10.59
Kurt Francom
Yeah, and this is something I’ve been discussing a lot in our ah newsletter just this concept of like the experience of church and you know is is the 2 hours of church working and I know that’s come across quite like what it mean is working. Of course that’s working but no, really like yeah.

22:25.48
Geoff Openshaw
No I think that’s a fair thing to bring up. Yeah I I want to? yeah.

22:30.48
Kurt Francom
And and what I feel like a lot of leaders have much more autonomy to influence and even every day going members who don’t have maybe official title of influence or whatnot but there is more that we could do to really step back and say why do we do it that way and is there a better way and I think there’s a lot we could do. Um, to to improve our everybody’s experience on Sunday and make it something of where they leave feeling like I cannot wait to come back next time where now I know it can be such a tradition and something you just do. Yeah that’s right.

22:59.32
Geoff Openshaw
And we shouldn’t just do traditions because we have traditions a tradition for tradition’s sake is not Justification folks mix mix it up. Mix it up I mean you got to see even even the guidelines you you were writing something about this even the guidelines for sacrain meaning you can get a long up in semantics. It says the word may.

23:08.70
Kurt Francom
Amen mix it up.

23:18.84
Geoff Openshaw
Include the following in the handbook not should. There’s nothing that says you have to structure sacramentineia exactly the way you do, There’s certain elements you want to get in place but man you could start off with a special musical number. That’s just going as people walk in, you could do all kinds of stuff. Yeah I mean I So as we saw her in the pandemic many of us shifted to having the sacrament itself at the end of the meeting.

23:23.30
Kurt Francom
I know.

23:30.90
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah.

23:38.62
Geoff Openshaw
Because there would be a broadcast and then they just cut that off at the end so they could do the sacrament when it was done and we did that for like a year in our ward. You can mix things up all you want you can.

23:42.46
Kurt Francom
Yeah, right? Yeah, can you imagine walking into a Sara meeting and suddenly you know the bishop remembers starts it off and says well we’re now going to do the talks. We’re gonna turn the time over to brother. So and so he’s gonna give us a talk. We’re goingnna do that business at the end of the meeting right now.

23:57.21
Geoff Openshaw
And you could You could definitely I mean I think obviously the talks is supposed to be more of the the spiritual Zenith of the meeting and you want to kind of go out on that note as opposed to having everyone yeah right in I was in a ward once when I was in a singles ward where they.

24:07.00
Kurt Francom
You’d you’d think right? but hey see what happens you know.

24:13.17
Geoff Openshaw
Announcements ah business was still early but announcements were at the very end even after the prayer because the bishop was like it’s a singles word and like you’re all showing up late and I and I’m goingnna start on time but I don’t want you to miss any of these announcements So we’re gonna do them at the end of the meeting. So everyone So everyone hears it Yeah or.

24:24.10
Kurt Francom
The the tradition of announcements that’s.

24:29.54
Geoff Openshaw
And the tradition of announcements which I feel like is already kind of slipping back into what it was before when we had 3 hour church because the idea when they shortened saccharment meaning by only 5 minute 10 minutes total right? Yeah because he used to get out at None after. So yeah, we 10 minutes shorter and part of the guidance was you know consider what needs to be announced from the pulpit and what doesn’t. But that only works if your word is effectively communicating across other channels people and if your word isn’t doing that. Okay, we could go on rants all day anyway. So good times on the 4th July any any other stories you want to touch on Kurt before we before but before we go.

24:56.60
Kurt Francom
Nice. Oh yeah, we got other stories here before we go Oh boy Um, the former Hollywood producer. Let’s see where my moving this? ah.

25:11.50
Geoff Openshaw
Um, sorry select that this is the one you just.

25:15.40
Kurt Francom
Headline by desert news here at top of the line. What former Hollywood producers are saying about the book of Mormon videos. So these are I guess they finished recording their last season of book of Mormon videos and you know I think these have been they’ve taken up a notch there too As far as the quality and um.

25:34.26
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:34.78
Kurt Francom
Of production value and whatnot and so um, but you you pointed out here in the notes here that this this former hollywood producer says is a elder Michael a dun member the the corner of the 70 So yeah, yeah, he’s great. Awesome. Yeah.

25:45.57
Geoff Openshaw
He was the he’s he’s want to give that 1% better talk a couple conferences ago that where the math was actually shady if you can if you do it but but it was good. Talk oh I’m cururt I heard the I’m met this guy too I’m with this. Ah yeah, sure.

25:54.20
Kurt Francom
Got opportunity to meet him once and he’s a really cool guy I just I just at the gas station he was at the other pump and you know that just happens here in Utah now. Ah, no, that’s another story I interviewed him for I hope out the bu management society for their podcast and we interviewed him so.

26:03.84
Geoff Openshaw
Is that actually the story. Ah darn How success. Good deal.

26:12.84
Kurt Francom
Ah, before he was called to the 70 but so I don’t know what if can you imagine if he was critical of like ah this is second.

26:18.24
Geoff Openshaw
I know like what’s what else is it going to say for 1 Yeah, they they could try a little harder. Let’s be honest.

26:23.18
Kurt Francom
Um, but I agree with them I mean this is these are some great videos and hopefully they’ll be around a while to to be peppered into a Sunday school lesson. You know as we study the book of mormon. So.

26:33.44
Geoff Openshaw
Let us take issue with the headline though for one top of the line is the quote. What former Hollywood producers are saying they interview somebody else. But the only one who said top of the line was producer or singular elder done. Um and he says he love this quote though.

26:39.79
Kurt Francom
Oh producers was there. Another guy.

26:51.62
Geoff Openshaw
Ive I’ve appreciated accuracy in detail 10 times to what I’ve been accustomed to and I’ve worked in hollywood I’ve worked everywhere. This is top of the line I just love that line I’ve worked in hollywood I’ve worked everywhere I’ve worked in bollywood I’ve worked in the chinese market I’ve worked everywhere I’ve made obscure kos of our films I’ve done it all. Um.

27:03.52
Kurt Francom
Yeah.

27:09.75
Geoff Openshaw
If you do look up his Imdb page Michael Aide done and this is this is no issue with the book of mormon videos themselves. This is just an issue with with editors at Desret News trying to get clicks because we know what this is this is essentially us trying to say like.

27:12.73
Kurt Francom
Um, just less general conference or what.

27:26.33
Geoff Openshaw
Look at you look the world loves what we’re doing. We’re doing things the quality we we are doing things of the quality of those those terrible coastal states We know things the the elites love us. That’s what we’re That’s the that’s what with headlines trying to convey. Um.

27:27.56
Kurt Francom
We are. We are the chosen.

27:43.48
Geoff Openshaw
I’m looking at his history though at least according to Imdb and it’s not even a knock on anything. He’s done but it just looks like it’s a lot of studio c I think holly hobbyies on hulu so that’s fine, but a lot of it looking at this you got random acts Grace notes artful an evening with Marie Osmond Dwight and shining armor. Showoffs all of these things are byutv productions. There’s nothing wrong with that b u tvv is very good I’m just struggling to see where the hollywood comes into this and it could very well be that his imdb page just simply doesn’t have that you know maybe somebody else like a a rep from by Utv has done this and other stuff’s just not there. You know who knows. but but I just want to know I want to know what Michael had done is actually done in hollywood to be quoted as and a hollywood elite. The man is basically Spielberg. So.

28:30.81
Kurt Francom
There there you have it not. And he’s a 70 So.

28:40.12
Geoff Openshaw
It’s everything you want. It’s fine. It’s just like a weird headline Anyway, What do you do? We could talk a couple of other things I don’t really know what I have to say about this other than slate covered that new piece ah piece about that new show called Mormon No more which is currently airing on Hulu um.

28:55.22
Kurt Francom
Have you seen it Geoff you’ve been back logged with stranger things haven’t you it was so good I loved it. Ah.

28:57.51
Geoff Openshaw
And I have not which is why I’ve I’ve dude dude season 4 was so good season. 4 was easily the best since the first season I don’t even think that was a question. I don’t care about the long episodes I feel like very little little of it was wasted. Everything just worked. It was great. I loved even with the yeah we talked about that before yeah some of the b why you coverage is well if you looked closely. There was someone who got a screenshot of ah.

29:17.95
Kurt Francom
It’s true. Loved it. The byu pendants in the background I mean yeah. Oh yeah, they mentioned Hinkley or something some strange picture of Jesus I’ve never seen but hey.

29:31.10
Geoff Openshaw
Her compute of her computer and it’s like a hinkley quote if they did a pretty good job on that I that that one is not one that we circulate I’ve seen it but we don’t circulate it much in our faith tradition. They got that one wrong? Um, but this says forget forget under the banner of heaven. There’s another show that actually gets the Mormon Church it’s funny because I think they’ve tweaked that headline a little bit since I first sock so I thought it said like I thought I saw a teaser somewhere that said like these are the issues that are actually existing in the mormon church right now it shows a picture of the stars of the show None women who were in heterosexual marriages who are friends and came to realize they were in love with each other the Newport Beach Temple is behind them. Also makes me wonder where they got this image for the show because knowing that property they’re standing in a stakes center parking lot and I can’t imagine the church would want them to film there but okay, whatever I don’t know how that worked out that’s either way I think this supposed to be pretty decent I mean a lot of people were critical of under the banner of heaven for not quite getting it for for Admittedly. Being a little fast and loose with some of the church history and trying to tie that in to what happened in the lafferty episode in the 80 s this on the other hand is a 4 episode series just essentially covering these women and their experiences those of their families. Um. And I’m trusting more in my circle who are saying you might not love the outcome just in the grand scheme of what we’re trying to do as latter day saints. But it’s it’s a bit more of a it’s a fairer shake at what we are doing in the church and so i.

30:54.91
Kurt Francom
Yeah I mean I I have planned to watch it to um I don’t have hulu but I will get Hulu I guess and but yeah and I I don’t know I I hope it’s I’m not holding my breath that it’s going to be overly fair and I think they’ll be.

31:01.21
Geoff Openshaw
What.

31:13.69
Kurt Francom
Maybe you know with these production things you’re you’re going for an audience. You’re telling the story. You’re not trying to get to the facts and whatnot in any documentary. You know you you watch you you have it’s going to be influential and you can see 1 documentary on one side of an issue and be like oh I totally see it that way and then.

31:26.21
Geoff Openshaw
Learning.

31:31.19
Kurt Francom
And opposite and be like oh Wow I Totally see like it this the the art of documentary is maybe not a reliable one when setting opinions and perspectives of my opinion but hey I’ll give it a shot.

31:40.75
Geoff Openshaw
Many of them do have perspectives I mean look at the Lula Roe documentary which was compelling for sure. Absolutely had an angle. It was trying to take I mean for sure. But at the same time I at the same time I doubt none of it. Also.

31:50.42
Kurt Francom
Ah, right? That was very entertaining though. Geoff right.

31:58.84
Geoff Openshaw
So I need to check this out I feel bad I don’t have anything else to report on it but I need to spend some time watching this and I’ll I’ll give it a shake I’ll I’ll see what’s going on and I think if they would have hired the former Hollywood producer. You know elder done this this might have gone better I’m just saying if you’ve got a Hollywood producer ready to go. What are you thinking.

32:07.59
Kurt Francom
Um, he was busy Geoff he was busy.

32:16.86
Geoff Openshaw
Right? Quick note here. Everybody all y’all the Tokyo Japan temple after being closed for a number of years for redediccation and then some covid stuff. You know all those fun things happened is now back online president iring was over there this past weekend he and elder stevenson. And they rededicated what is the church’s longest operating temple in Asia and now it’s it’s back there I’m trying to see if it says exactly how long it was closed which it was for some time they’re not really focusing on that in here. But what a wonderful event as part of its renovation though they they expanded this entire whole like. Extra building to the side of it that forms part of the whole temple campus now and I love the pictures you see like they actually have rockwork and fountain work that we see a fountains in front of lots of temples. But there’s there’s efforts at this temple to incorporate a little bit more of the environment around it and make it look kind of cool and so I’m thrilled that they did this I’m glad it’s ah it’s. Up and running again I mean Japan’s got a handful of temples. It’s got the one in Sapporo but that’s up on up on the North Island it’s at hokaido I’m b blankking on I’m forget the names Tokyo of course you got the one down of fukoka. They’re building one way down in but um, but um, but um, blinkin and in Yokinawa Okina Yokkainawa and Okinawa but. Very nice for the main big island to have their temple back and I think this is.

33:29.54
Kurt Francom
Yeah, and looks like elder Stevenson was evolved involved so he he served to okay I’m I’m what I’m saying what I’m getting to Jeb oh I’m saying I always wonder like I would imagine that these assignments are divvied out maybe in their weekly. You know.

33:34.73
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah I said that Kurt how else was he involved.

33:48.51
Kurt Francom
Meeting is a corm of the None and none presidency and you know you think that elder stevenson you know he has this history of Japan but I just wonder there’s this feeling like what if they they give it to elder ped r and I just want to go and then it’s like oh no, really no David you go I’m good and but inside he’s like seething like oh. But it’s Japan I love Japan right? He just did the Hong Kong temple right? Yeah anyways.

34:06.10
Geoff Openshaw
Or what or worse what if it was altra gong for for patronizing reasons. Yeah, and so and and building on that. So this is great for the saints there and they’ve built you know these whole new buildings alongside it I think it’s just wonderful. The Tokyo Japan temple is decent size it is I mean Japan is you know heavily urbanized as you might imagine. It’s not quite a Hong Kong temple in terms of being this very urban building in the middle of things. But ah it is you know, slammed in the middle of a neighborhood and they’ve built it more vertical than anything else if you ever look at it on Google Maps you can definitely see how that works. It’s actually across the street from a large memorial park and having never been to Tokyo I don’t know the significance of that in and of itself but I would like to go to Tokyo primarily to go to disneycdisneyckurt.

34:52.70
Kurt Francom
Um, to Disney what oh is that and that’s a thing huh.

34:58.96
Geoff Openshaw
It’s the best theme park in the whole world. Apparently you got Tokyo Disneyland and next to it the None gate Disney C widely regarded as the greatest theme park on the planet no like for reals people say that I’m not making this up this. This is what the people say um.

35:05.44
Kurt Francom
Um, like really people say that.

35:13.20
Kurt Francom
There’s probably some documentary on Disney plus you can watch about it right.

35:18.14
Geoff Openshaw
And it’s funny. Another news you mentioned like elder stevenson going. We still don’t know who’s going to be rededicating our ah Washington d c temple and it’s it’s intriguing to me. They have yet to announce that because by this point that’s typically acknowledged ah I have to wonder if it would be.

35:27.72
Kurt Francom
So you think it’ll be president Nelson just because maybe they wouldn’t announce that early.

35:34.41
Geoff Openshaw
But they usually announce it even but if it was president Nelson I have to wonder if they’re just worried about I don’t know schedule is aligning or something. Some reason they’re not announcing fully who is going to be running the dedication.

35:41.13
Kurt Francom
Because as we learn from president Nelson he doesn’t even buy green bananas. So maybe he doesn’t want to put this on a schedule yet. But if it if he’s around he’s there I’m sure he’ll be around.

35:49.82
Geoff Openshaw
That’s yeah still I don’t know and we did find out they’re goingnna be doing it in our stake centers as well which just kind of cool. We didn’t initially there was no discussion of having him broadcast it at the stake centers and you know you ever done that you know in the Stake center. Yeah, right, it’s.

35:59.99
Kurt Francom
Um, oh yeah I thought that was like standard practice.

36:04.36
Geoff Openshaw
Pretty standard I just I looked into it just very recently and I got nothing so I was like all right I Guess we’re just kind of kind of do it quietly and let that be it. But then they announced this past weekend. Yes, we will get to do the whole whole thing. Yeah, it’s fun I haven’t done one of those in a long time but be good. Good deal.

36:14.45
Kurt Francom
Hosanna shout Sweet so Geoff Lds living published an article title 3 things missionaries need to remember if their converts stop attending church um, is is this been a.

36:20.42
Geoff Openshaw
Great publication. Yes.

36:28.51
Geoff Openshaw
Is your fault. Why didn’t you have more faith and this is a result of your sin.

36:31.97
Kurt Francom
What’s that more faith read your scriptures more maybe that one night you stayed out past nine thirty that that their salvation was left lost. Um, so they they give some tips you know your service still counts.

36:40.70
Geoff Openshaw
That this is that night you came in at nine thirty two you son of a.

36:50.83
Kurt Francom
This doesn’t mean you are a bad missionary and agency is a gif not occurs. So what’s been your experience with your converts I don’t know you went to Europe did you have converts Geoff.

36:56.70
Geoff Openshaw
That’s fine. Yeah, that’s a fair question to ask actually. Ah, None of all I take issue with this headline as well. I hate the idea of their converts I get it. It’s fine, but they’re not my converts their converts unto the lord I just happen to teach them.

37:05.23
Kurt Francom
Are the.

37:12.60
Geoff Openshaw
If you look at it like your commerdes. Maybe that’s why they’re not active anymore I don’t know could be part of it. They’re not pride. They’re not prizes to be won is what I’m saying so moving past that. Um I mean I The list is fine.

37:16.59
Kurt Francom
Yeah, yeah.

37:24.35
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, so of it like I’ve never got down on myself. Yeah I had people who I’ve taught and who were baptized who did not stick around Absolutely I did Yeah yes we did. We did teach and baptize in Europe Mostly Latin American immigrants. Not really a lot of the natives as we say not and all lot of the actual ah native spaniards.

37:33.79
Kurt Francom
Okay.

37:44.26
Geoff Openshaw
But I never beat myself up about it I tried to be really clear though like my biggest concern was pressure coming from elsewhere within a mission to get people baptized sooner than they were ready and there’s a fine line there. There’s a fine line between um, pushing people too quickly and they’re not ready for it. And being bold enough to like feel the spirit and challenge people to rise to that occasion and they will be ready for it but like you know it’s very easy to want to be cautious enough that you don’t that you don’t offend that you don’t do something before somebody is ready but there are occasions when no, you can challenge someone to do this as the spirit dictates and that’s that’s like okay, it doesn’t always mean it’s too soon. Have seen too soon. Absolutely I’ve seen too soon. But and I’m sure you have too. Um, but I don’t think it’s your fault and I think that’s a good thing to remember is that people still you know, have their agency people are going to join some will leave some might come back years later which I’ve seen as well and what can you do you? You can’t take it upon yourself as a missionary and say it’s all your fault I Think when you’re a missionary you’re operating it.

38:24.48
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah.

38:43.25
Geoff Openshaw
With in some ways a limited tools kit based on the things you are basically taught to teach as a missionary which is fine but you’re kind of you’re kind of putting out there. What you’re taught to put out there and and even beyond that like you’re not, You’re not living the same way they are in their Country. You’re not a local right? I think it’s always more impactful. That’s why you always. Bring members of your branch reward with you if you can they live there. They understand what it’s like to live there. They’re the ones who will understand these investigators a lot more when you’re a missionary.. It’s a little bit more you’re you’re kind of a blip honestly in their life and ah and ideally you you may remain an important person who taught them.

39:11.40
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah.

39:20.16
Geoff Openshaw
But you are not the be all and end all and I’ve seen a lot of converts who like lean on their Missionaries a ton ah to the point of it being a crutch and like that’s not healthy Either. You got to let people got to turn them loose. They’ve got to be local in their wards. The war members have got to be with them. This is somehow become a rant about fellowshipping. So I’ll stop because I don’t know what I’m talking about anymore.

39:38.15
Kurt Francom
Well I think it’s just I think it’s fair that any anytime you’re transferred or you leave an area as a missionary you could feel the sense of surrender of that individual or that family that you taught and baptized of you know this is the wards Now this is the local community. They’re the local communities now. But most importantly, they’re.

39:47.89
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

39:57.00
Kurt Francom
They belong to Jesus Christ and he’s got him and you know and I think there is you know I remember now om saragosa he was like my first convert baptism now oom saragosa yep now. Um like the bible. Oh really? well they go so it all comes together. But.

40:06.80
Geoff Openshaw
Noome Saragosa Oh now I’m okay I I servant I served in Saragosa yeah thoughtra Gota Thoughtra gota.

40:15.49
Kurt Francom
But we got he came to church Once we got some exception I think in our mission they had to come twice. But I forget the exception we made he got baptized didn’t step another day in the church and who knows where he’s at but in the larger scheme of things I feel like you know what? we.

40:21.60
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

40:31.42
Kurt Francom
Taught this guy gave him every opportunity to say yes was it rushed. Maybe I don’t know maybe if I I don’t remember all the details but at the end of day. He’ll get to the other side of the veil and say good news now. Um we got your work recorded. Let’s talk about the temple or you know whatever it is or the priesthood and they go from there. So I think there’s just deeper meaning. In these even these blip of experiences rather than you know hey did they do you have the picture of you standing in front of the temple with them if not oh we failed? yeah.

40:59.20
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, you didn’t fail. It’s like what you I frankly, don’t know if anybody I taught is still active like truly I mean I think the best I did was I had a guy who I never knew oneho history. He was a guy who was a stake president once in his native country was somehow excommunicated at some point and then had come to Spain. And we worked really hard to kind of get him back involved I think he had a lot of shame and I never asked about like the details of any of it but we were able to baptize his wife and his daughter like stayed active and went on a mission or all kinds of stuff that was cool but I don’t know if anybody I like taught from the get-go stayed active and it is ah it can be a little sad like I’ve come back to.

41:19.40
Kurt Francom
Um.

41:27.14
Kurt Francom
Um, nice.

41:34.73
Geoff Openshaw
Gone back to visit old areas have you ever traveled back to the old stomping ground. Yeah you know and you talk to some of the members and you’ll ask Ill ask them like hey what happened to so and so or so and so or so and so and they might remember but they’ll be like yeah there you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, look at.

41:35.70
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah, yeah.

41:43.63
Kurt Francom
Yeah, and I would say like even just the machine of missionary work right? like someone’s Interested. We connect them with the missionaries who tight teach them about like I I think we can maybe reassess some different points of that progress of saying how can we really insert a member relationship here. And I think some you know wards and stakes. Do it better than others. But um, sometimes I can be so forgotten because you’re so you’re teaching them. You get so attached and connected as the missionary you know and then you do get transferred and yeah.

42:15.70
Geoff Openshaw
That’s and that’s the hardest thing I don’t know if it’s like my my my my rather dry nature. My cynical nature. But even when I was a missionary I was I was pumped up to be teaching these people I was excited for what we were doing. But yeah, my my priority was to get them in with members.

42:21.47
Kurt Francom
I’ve never noticed Geoff.

42:29.92
Geoff Openshaw
It is fun to look back at old Journals though and you see how much how overzealous you can be. You’re just like ah Gez Geez Oh well, What can you? What can you do? I think I had a follow up here but I figure forgot what it was oh, it’s Okay, anyway, don’t beat yourselves up folks if any of you are listening to this show.

42:31.65
Kurt Francom
All right? Yeah yeah.

42:42.52
Kurt Francom
Um, was it meant to be.

42:47.61
Geoff Openshaw
And you and you were a missionary and you found out somebody who taughts no longer and don’t beat yourself up, You just got to love them move on get in touch with them. Maybe do that but don’t don’t you know, just got to live your life. It’s going to be okay, all right folks. Let’s go to a wonderful land a land where truth and righteousness prevails cururt the land of your mission if I’m.

43:06.52
Kurt Francom
That’s right? Yep I I am not responsible for anything goes on in this state. But that’s right most likely? Yeah I’m sure.

43:07.28
Geoff Openshaw
I’m not mistaken and this actually this comes out of this actually comes out of the city of your mission. No less kurt you you in None way or another influenced this story. Um. So this isn’t like altogether new but this but an element of this came across my radar. So what happened is last fall California passed a b five zero six which was a bill that put more stringent requirements in place for adults who were working or volunteering with some type of youth organization. Whatever it might be the law took effect in January. We haven’t heard much. About it in the latter-day saint context since then however ah it has come to at least my attention through some some Reddit feeds and talking to some people privately and a lot of other things that the church is like acting on this I don’t know if this stuff might have been going down elsewhere in the state California has like one hundred and forty seven stes so I’m sure something might have happened somewhere. But we get a note from a certain stake which we will keep nameless for for their own sake that this isn’t this is a real issue this steak in letter data basically like last week essentially saying here’s what’s going on with this new law if you are in the following callings you are. You are under this law because it applies to anyone who spends at least 32 hours a week of starts how week 32 hours a year with youth if you spend that much time with youth and of course of a year you have to undergo fingerprinting and a criminal background check now in the state of California otherwise an organization becameliable.

44:21.26
Kurt Francom
Yeah.

44:30.83
Kurt Francom
And most any youth leader in the church would easily pass that threshold right.

44:35.84
Geoff Openshaw
Yes, so so easily you’re talking state presidenancies bishoprics and branch presidencies stake toward primary leaders and workers stakeward young men and young women leaders advisors, instructors and camp directors seminary teachers and secretaries and their substitutes and anybody else to whom this might apply. This could be a lot of your award leadership when you really get down to it like they don’t single out Sunday school presidents. But if you’re a Sunday school president and you have teachers that are in your purview who teach youth they have to get it and you might want to get it too because you might have to sub in someday. For example. I find it hard to see how this almost won’t touch every adult in your congregation. Beyond I don’t know the the sacrament meaning chorister. Maybe that one will stay out of it. So it touches a lot of people to be clear I don’t think this is even a bad thing necessarily but it it does involve an effort and it also involves cost the stakee in this case says like we’re going to absorb the cost. Of this for stake members and there’s times they can go to the stake center and do all of this but I think the the short of this is I think it’s very interesting because the church has been moving towards trying to be I think more helpful and more accountable in terms of what we do to protect youth. It was ah. What year was it when the church announced the required youth training for everybody that was 2019 so we’re only about three years ago the church put out that new training that’s called protecting children and youth I might be paraphrasing the name here. But you’ve taken this.

45:54.72
Kurt Francom
Um, I think that’s right.

46:00.43
Geoff Openshaw
30 minute module basically explains how to protect youth from abuse all kinds of abuse how to look after them how to take yeah and the things we need to do as leaders as well to safeguard ourselves. Also the church. All that stuff you have to do it and you have to reup on that training every three years if you’re in a position of leadership and that’s good. That’s great I think we’ve seen the church. Do this. We’ve seen the church change its policy and allow parents to sit in on youth interviews I think it’s unfortunate that many of the people who pushed for that policy got in trouble with the church for doing so but that’s a different discussion for another time. That’s okay I but I like the policy itself and so now we see this. Ah. Least in California California’s not the none state to have requirements like this by the way lest you think it’s old California leading out and overregulating stuff. They’re not the first to do things like this. But um I think this is interesting going forward what this could mean. For the church There’s some states like haven’t touched this any state’s been allowed to do this for None ears nearly thirty years under under the um, the national child protection act there was date. It’s from the 90 s but some don’t do it because they think it’s a bit onerous they’re like well the cost is a lot. It might dissuade people from. Engaging in service or or and being involved with organizations because they said I don’t want to go through all these hoops to do this which is like a fair argument I get it. But in this case, the church is ah requiring its leaders to do it and encouraging others who might not even be in those callings to do it so they’re just kind of at the ready should it ever arise I really think the long and short of this is more or less if you’re an adult in your unit just like. Plan on potentially having to get this done if you’re in California you don’t know when the call will come but it might call or it might come the call. Um, so I mean Kurt I how do you feel? Do you think this is like. Is this overreach by the state is this something. The church should have just been doing anyway to have good faith because this is the other countries also do this where the church is active. It’s easy to see that the church just doing the bare minimum that is required of it legally in this case but I don’t know like what’s your take.

47:46.19
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah, right? Yeah no I I I like things like this where a specific area state or they’re going to try something right? they’re they’re going to say we’re going to prioritize background checks when I don’t I’m not familiar with all. It’s involved with background checks as far as the you know the cost and the expense and whatnot.

48:09.76
Geoff Openshaw
It’s about so we put this in it. We got an article about this. It’s fifty bucks for the background check then a $30 um like completion fee or something like that. So it’s eighty bucks per head and if you do some quick math on that front. Um.

48:17.76
Kurt Francom
Um.

48:24.00
Geoff Openshaw
Like what if if you have like 20 people in your word who need it like 7 words in your stake that’s like over 10 grand that’s ten or eleven thousand dollars in fees if there’s one hundred and forty seven six in California the church is spending one point five million dollars to do this statewide.

48:27.60
Kurt Francom
Um.

48:32.34
Kurt Francom
Yeah, and is there any like if I am the young men’s leader like in my are they just doing a background check and it comes back ya or nay or or do they call me and ask me questions or like.

48:45.90
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, well that depends on the nature. So it’s a criminal background check and it’s limited within the California’s penal structure. Okay, so it’s it’s guided by the California department of justice so this is not a federal probe but it is a criminal background check within the state of California.

48:51.00
Kurt Francom
Um, okay gotcha.

49:01.11
Geoff Openshaw
And they they could call you up it depends on what you’re trying to do. You’re not being granted like any kind of a clearance or anything like that. But you know and it also isn’t clear like what would happen if you have somebody in a calling and you find out there. They were convicted of something at some point I Assume they’d be released. But there’s no specific. You know actions outlined in the letter from the state.

49:05.14
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah.

49:11.65
Kurt Francom
Yeah, yeah, so I think it’s great. You know, let’s I think try it in this area see out goes I I would also not be surprised if it sort of has a you know, just say no campaign ah backfire like ah.

49:20.22
Geoff Openshaw
Like that.

49:31.40
Kurt Francom
You know Nancy Reagan’s just say no they I think they showed it stimulated more drug use than less. But um, what’s it. Okay, all right because you just said no, but um, the the yes.

49:33.99
Geoff Openshaw
I didn’t take drugs. She helped me not take drugs I said I will say no Nancy did did quick question on that because I see parallels did she did did they. Studies say it backfired because it opened kids’ minds up to what drugs were and then they wanted they became curious about them or I think about like I think thinking about like bishops interviews you know, like the same like do you do this in a moral sense young man and the kids like I don’t even know what that is but now I do no I’m curious.

49:51.54
Kurt Francom
Oh I don’t remember and someone can back check me on that if that’s but I’ve heard that.

50:02.38
Kurt Francom
Yeah, all right? Yeah, that might have played into it. But um, the the other point is is that the vast vast vast majority of abuses happen within the context of families right? Um, and so.

50:05.83
Geoff Openshaw
Right? So thanks.

50:19.33
Kurt Francom
and and I would say the vast vast vast majority of church leadership relationships the the number of exits from abuse that are created from a relationship with a church leader by far outnumber the inappropriate abuse of situations and so again, do we want to create friction in these areas and you could say well yeah. If it saves you know None more person from abuse or okay that that’s something to consider. But also I think we need to I think there’s maybe other ways to go about it rather than background checks maybe more education maybe 30 minutes is enough is there more we could do or state could do to educate leaders working with youth in order to. Create more exits from abuse rather than than less or you know anyways, that’s that’s my concern. Yeah yeah.

51:01.15
Geoff Openshaw
See I think I think it’s a swiss cheese approach right? I think we’re doing little things we’re we’re doing more training Good. We’re working better on that front. We’re teaching leaders how to respond in certain certain situations and what’s required in terms of reporting if they stubble upon abuse. Good. Um, we’re letting parents sit on youth interviews Good All these little layers are are covering each other’s holes I think this is just another Layer. You could see it as you know a unnecessary hassle I Don’t think it’s that much of a hassle frankly, especially if your steak is covering it and it’s just like show up at the Stake Center get fingerprinted and and submit some forms for a background investigation.

51:35.22
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah, yeah.

51:38.87
Geoff Openshaw
That’s all you’re doing California’s taxpayers are paying for the rest of it so like whatever just your deal but I see it kind of in that sense I like that the church is doing this I wouldn’t mind that the church was proactively doing this because I don’t know every stat regarding abuse in our church like you said a lot happens at home. But we should be doing everything we can to protect the kids for sure.

51:40.17
Kurt Francom
Um, yeah.

51:58.46
Geoff Openshaw
And give them a safe environment I Like to think we live in a world where these things aren’t required. But as as we see a lot in the church. The church adopts certain policies typically in response to the bad actions of a minority and it’ll do that on its own I’ve said here before in the podcast. It was on my mission. They updated the white handbook. To forbid missionaries from picking up kids from touching children in any way the vast majority of Missionaries I’m sure were just fine, but but to avoid either. We’re troubled Missionaries who who knows what would happen there or just litigious parents The the church gets sued for a lot of stuff some of which is just like.

52:20.89
Kurt Francom
Um, right.

52:37.48
Geoff Openshaw
Frivolous lawsuits for sure that happens all the time for whatever reason they updated the the policy the search update policies all the time and it can seem like a hassle to a lot of other people who are doing a perfectly good job being rule keepeping latter day saints slash citizens but you have a policy to protect everybody and that’s what we do, we’re we’re thinking about. The None more in this case than we are everybody else. So I think it’s good. We’ll see what happens this time goes on. But yeah.

52:59.24
Kurt Francom
Yeah, I’m excited to see how it works out and and I think it’s good for the church to just process. You know what does that mean if a state or a country or whatever puts the burden of of these of this process on us. You know we got to figure that out. Yeah.

53:12.10
Geoff Openshaw
No.

53:15.58
Kurt Francom
So Geoff Heimer Smith’s handwritten copy of doctrine covenants 11 donated to the church. We appreciate that Geoff that you would go out and donate that was it you okay, you did is a.

53:19.88
Geoff Openshaw
Cool You’re welcome. Yes I did it and it guilty as charged.

53:32.11
Kurt Francom
There’s ah, an article by Mary Richards in the church news. Um I know she’s great I actually emailed her this week and she’s helping me line up an interview that should be very fascinating. Um, so experts in archivists with the church history department.

53:34.43
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, we love Mary Richards no no we legitimately love.

53:48.30
Kurt Francom
Ah, rigorously examined I think there’s a certain anyways rigorously they maybe haven’t done that in the past. But.

53:52.38
Geoff Openshaw
What when you read that when you also think about sorry I read that and I’m like do they also regularously examined the things from Mark Kafman and that that what you were thinking of because that’s what a bunch to may and like well we’ve we rigorously examined a lot of things. But.

54:00.14
Kurt Francom
Yeah I think they have a new standard since the 1980 s anyways, they examined the documents and confirmed it was a handwritten handwriting of Hiram Smith section 11 in his revelation. Given through the prophet Joseph Smith to his brother at harmony Pennsylvania so and they have pictures of um, ah you know presenting the the document and going over the document with president ballard who is you know in the family line of of Hammerman. Um, and yeah, you can see the handwriting and see the document online and this is cool I like to hear when our library of historical artifacts expands.

54:43.53
Geoff Openshaw
It took me a couple of times of passing through this because of the quote from ah Greg Cook Greg Cook by the way is one of the founders of doterra and so he found this at moon’s rare books in Provo and then just thought to himself. Oh I should give this to the church great but reading the line not fully understanding the context. Ah, we know that he’s the great. Great-great-grason of Hiram Smith but like if you just see it out context me says like I knew this had significance to you and your family I was scanning it at none I was like is this guy not lds like he just buy this thing and was least thinking family like the church family like hey this is this is important to you guys? Enjoy no, it’s not that. But.

55:17.48
Kurt Francom
And that’s how essential oils have blessed the church Geoff.

55:20.96
Geoff Openshaw
By making us all not comprehensive readers. Apparently.

55:24.79
Kurt Francom
You know by by by making zone rich enough to go but be able to buy it.

55:28.60
Geoff Openshaw
Who knows how much it even well. The funny thing is who in Provo of all places moon’s rare books is like hey I’m going to cash out on this one hello this is the dream where is moon’s rare books I bet Mr. Center street got us.

55:32.50
Kurt Francom
I Know it’s like who’s sitting on this right.

55:42.90
Kurt Francom
I’m going to say Center straight or University parkway.

55:46.54
Geoff Openshaw
Okay, okay oh I think both of us are quite wrong. It is no, it’s in the riverwoods. It’s ah yeah, it’s over on the backside there. My cozy Nook treasures and blicken staff’s toy store I can’t believe these are all the real names of places and this is this is it. It is.

55:47.94
Kurt Francom
Um, some guy’s basement. Oh they’ve upgraded it.

56:06.47
Kurt Francom
Um, love it.

56:06.62
Geoff Openshaw
It’s great. Good piece of history. Glad we have it all right for our last little bit here this week folks. Cool news here. Um Senior Missionaries are very important in the church. The church I feel like is constantly encouraging Senior Missionaries. Or senior couples to consider going on missions and it’s very clear. The need is great and all like has been adamant about this just like yes we need you please come serve.

56:24.87
Kurt Francom
Yes. Please don’t light fireworks on fourth of July and please consider a mission. Thank you.

56:34.39
Geoff Openshaw
So here’s something I was unaware of an article by Haley Lundberg over at Lds living um highlighting the fact that there is a portal that the church maintains where you could break down and look into what’s available for senior missionaries. But it’s more than that. It’s like it says like here’s what the kind of the mission is the duration. What the cost will be per month. Whether it’s a critical need position or not It’s a whole thing where you can break down and filter through and if you’re considering a mission and they want to work with you regarding the parameters and cost and time and all the things you want to do you can look through this portal and just straight up get to the bottom of it and figure out what works best for you. I think it’s great I mean I love tools like this It’s just a filterable database more or less. But I’m glad they’re updating it and looking for those opportunities I mean you can set set the priority for critical high or low missionary type your length of service None to 2 years or six months only you can filter by your monthly cost so that you don’t have that you can include the insurance cost that there that it.

57:28.38
Kurt Francom
Are.

57:30.27
Geoff Openshaw
Involved to go So I know our our stats. This is really funny because I just clicked on the link and I’m signed in right now. It actually said is this you like I’ve never had this prompt before logging into a church system is it’s because I think it’s because they know my age. Yes, just give me a pop-up and Said. You are not currently eligible to serve as this type of missionary.

57:48.39
Kurt Francom
Go go back to your children at home that are dependent on you.

57:51.62
Geoff Openshaw
Ah I’m looking for a way out man come on. Ah I like for they like give you 2 pop ups basically like ah are you supposed to be alert.

57:55.45
Kurt Francom
Give me a chance Man Alert alert.

58:04.66
Geoff Openshaw
So anyways, you can say outside of I’m looking at now outside of your country. Do you want to be at home away from home or one option is in my own Rv or trailer I want to serve the mission that I’m driving around in my own rv our ah our current eldersorn president just got back from a senior mission a couple a year and a half or so ago

58:09.99
Kurt Francom
Um, Boom heber Camp I saw it with my own eyes.

58:23.11
Geoff Openshaw
And they were way down in Argentina like down in the paas region the church owns a ranch out there and they were just isolated out there like running this ranch just the 2 like 2 years and the only time they’d see a lot of people is they kids would come and do trek sometimes they’re.

58:29.46
Kurt Francom
Just make sure it doesn’t burn down or something.

58:38.41
Geoff Openshaw
During the year but like fascinating stories like yeah this is what they called us to do I’m just down in like Patagonia running a ranch for the church. It’s kind of off right.

58:43.62
Kurt Francom
You could create a whole podcast around just these interesting missions that exist because I was looking at these senior missionaries at Huber Camp and what they have to do and and I so to some it’s like they’re in heaven right? They’re just loving it I’m thinking I would hate every minute of that type of a mission. But. Bless their hearts that they enjoy it.

59:03.38
Geoff Openshaw
I’m selecting outside I like this one too because it says country. But then you can select when you hit the country within the country or out of the country because you could also so you could specify the country you want or you could say show me everything. That’s not american if like you want to go abroad. For example I mean you right? you right here could spend. Five hundred bucks per couple but you need insurance and be a spanishpeaking couple in the dominican republic santiago mission and be the recreational properties director these are the kinds of things you can do. Um I’m abandoning my family kurt this sounds more fun.

59:31.77
Kurt Francom
Get your mom’s login information and see if he can and then you show up when on day one.

59:36.59
Geoff Openshaw
I’m just gonna apply for 1 to bought it. Yeah, like be good all right? Well this has been fun man. Thanks um, Kurt you have anything else. You want to bring to the body before we close.

59:44.98
Kurt Francom
No I mean obviously we’re doing some fun stuff over at leading saints. So wherever you’re listening to this ah we have some announcements coming out this week Geoff so ah, be the times of scribe and here where we’re we’re headed as a as an organization. So yes.

59:58.48
Geoff Openshaw
Is the announcement that Sherry do has purchased you finally.

01:00:04.47
Kurt Francom
I am now retired actually I don’t own leading saints. But you know that’s right? So we’re we’re all rich because of his existence but it has nothing to Sherry do I’ll give you that teaser.

01:00:07.00
Geoff Openshaw
The people own leading saints everyone the people hurt ist part card is the hurt’s a communist so everyone owns it and the means of production. Well thanks for listening folks, please leave us a review if you’d like especially if you listen on Itunes or Spotify or Google Podcasts we’d love it if you did that and join us on Patreon where you can support the show financially with a couple of bucks a month which aren’t what they used to be prior to all this inflation fund that we’ve been having so you know help out $3 your $3 is worth less than it was a year ago which means I’m asking you for less resources. Folks kt like that one all right? Thanks everybody. Hope you have a great week I appreciate taking the time to listen in, please go to leading http://saints.org and support kurt go to this week of http://mormons.com and support us and I hope you listen to the show on twice speed. So until then Kurt that’s Kurt I’m Geoff thanks for listening to this week of mormons you won’t hear the end of this come talking so fast and that’s the end of the show. Okay bye.

 

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