EP 593 – Will the Real Joseph Smith Please Stand Up?

TWiM_EP593_Joseph_Smith_New_Photo_Real
The first-ever photo reportedly of Joseph Smith makes waves. Should girls be passing the sacrament?

Last week, a descendent of Joseph Smith released a photo that he and numerous scholars argue is the first-ever actual photo of the Prophet. It’s sent waves throughout Mormondom, and who better than Jared Gillins to be here and discuss its veracity and its provenance? There’s plenty of other news, too, so get the links below.

Latter-day Saint News for Late July 2022

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Transcript

00:00.00
Geoff
Yes, it is everyone welcome welcome welcome to another fantastic edition of This Week in Mormons the premieer latter day Saint News Podcast the og whatever you want to call us here. We are in season 13 just still doing this thing that we do I’m the founder of the show Geoff Openshaw ah

00:14.34
Jared
And I’m Jared gillins I’m a occasional co-host I am I feel like I belong you’ve you’ve created ah a welcoming space here. But as I gaze into your office and I see your.

00:19.62
Geoff
Yeah, but you’re still, you’re 1 of us Jared did one. You’re one of us you’re you’re you’re you’re not on the outside looking at why? Thank you I try to do that for everyone in in in a church atmosphere.

00:34.14
Jared
Cool Fender-esque guitar and your map of the Iberian Peninsula I Just feel I feel at home.

00:39.41
Geoff
Well thank you, Thank you I don’t put out my nicer guitar because it’s a semi hollow body and I don’t want the basement air to affect it whereas that’s a janky Knock Strat knockoff and it’s a hot thing.

00:48.37
Jared
Yeah. Is it A is it A we call it an an esquire or oh it’s not even like their low Grade Pv makes amps. They also make guitars interesting.

00:57.21
Geoff
No, no, no, it’s not even made by fender. It’s a it’s a pe v it’s a Pv. It’s the worth nothing. They yeah guitars and bases and stuff sure. Yeah, yeah, so ah, only people on Youtube watching right now. Actually. It’s over right over there? Yes, so I ah, it’s the first guitar I ever had years ago years and years ago my dad got a formula me with little practice amp. It’s not much but over the years I did stuff I filed down the frets I replaced the pickups with noiseless pickups I got it set up better. It’s still of hunk of junk I should replace the tuners on it.

01:17.87
Jared
Oh.

01:30.25
Jared
Still, ah, it’s nice that you’ve kind of customized it improved to a little. My None guitar was a a yamaha acoustic and I believe my younger brother the shark I believe he still has that I I I so either gave it to him or I sold it to him for a very small amount.

01:34.70
Geoff
I Did all this up.

01:48.58
Jared
And my current guitar which is in my wife’s office over that way because that’s the music room her her ah her her work. Its musics base. So I just keep my guitar next to her piano. Anyway, it’s a um, it’s offender. It’s offender acoustic. It’s got a nice cedar body I like it makes a nice warm sound.

01:50.94
Geoff
Yeah.

02:03.86
Geoff
So I was I was long in the market. My other guitars. Well I’ve got a ah acoustic but that other one on the edge that one is right there that one That’s my semi-hollow body. It’s ah it’s an epiphone. Um.

02:10.35
Jared
Oh.

02:19.31
Jared
Um, yeah.

02:22.12
Geoff
Shed in two pro. It’s a beauty. It’s wine red I’m in love with it I only got it this past year I saw a great great great deal on Facebook marketplace I’ve been scouting them on there in reverb for a long time. Guy lived all the way up in Wilmington Delaware so it’s January right after a bunch of snowstorms here I got up very early in the morning on a Saturday hopped in my car.

02:33.27
Jared
Well.

02:41.71
Geoff
Drove all the way to Wilmington and got there like seven am M before he had to work because he was a like he worked. He was like ah worked for the sheriff’s department. It’s like None yeah or so to get up there I know I was very close to Philly by that point I thought I should have just popped up to Philly and had some fun there picked up my stuff.

02:47.24
Jared
That is it because it’s at least what like that’s got to be a 3 hour drive to Wilmington right? okay.

02:59.63
Geoff
Very nice fella. Beautiful guitar. Great deal came with the case and just ah turned around came home stopped in little italy and Baltimore on the way home to get some cookies and it was a great trip all around. Ah this this is well.

03:07.23
Jared
Sweet so epiphone is to Gibson as squire is defender right? like kind of the same idea.

03:16.83
Geoff
Is a weird discussion to have on the show I don’t think it’s quite that I feel like Squire’s far more entry level whereas epiphones has their followers and can be used as like genuine better grade guitars.

03:24.43
Jared
That’s that’s what I’ve wondered because I have I have read some very nice things about epiphone that your semi-hollow type guitars that they make some really high quality ones. So.

03:31.33
Geoff
Yeah I mean you can buy a lot of epiphones. It’ll cost just as much as getting like a mexican-made you know fender strat or anything like that. You know you’re easily you can be nipping up on $1000 for an Epiphone easily. You’re not going to see that with the squire for the most part? Yeah, yeah, it is interesting times I’m glad you like my name is Iberia.

03:37.53
Jared
Um. Interesting, interesting.

03:49.74
Geoff
Beautiful Spain where I stood my mission. Our nephew just had his mission farewell yesterday sorry not his farewell. He gave remarks prior to leaving on his mission. We’ll call it that um his Instagram post and he’s going to portugal. That’s the point of this so he’s going to portugal and. His Instagram post like probably his last one before he’s not can’t use that stuff anymore before he got set apart said something like I’m moving to portugal. Please follow me I said he said drop your emails to I’m gonna mess this whole thing drop your emails to follow my lit. Spicy journeys or some some random thing that eighteen year olds or nineteen year olds would say I was dying because it’s like the greatest possible way to express the excitement about going out I think I’ve got right here. Yes, moving to Portugal comment your emails to hear about my lit fire sauce. Adventures.

04:33.71
Jared
That’s very funny.

04:39.30
Jared
Ah, that’s amazing I Love the youth and their and their parlance.

04:40.61
Geoff
I love the youth when we watched him open his call on Zoom with a bunch of buu students I heard the word lit I thought lit was already out of fashion but everyone was just saying like dude this is so lit. This is so lit.

04:51.35
Jared
I don’t know if does it truly go to fashion or is it just sort of like you know you still hear people say dope. Even though where we’re well past the 90 s but you know you could still use it even though it might not be fashionable and and you could say dope and people know it what you mean and maybe it’s like oh I don’t use dope. But I’m not going to judge someone else for saying it.

05:00.63
Geoff
Yeah, yeah, but that’s. I don’t know. Yeah I will judge someone who was on the call a girl who is like Portugal is that in South America and all I thought it was arrested development when job sees the ya and says portugal going down their old South america way a mikey that’s funny.

05:13.40
Jared
Ye.

05:23.50
Jared
Ah, um, well let me let me give you a quick update so you’ve you’ve mentioned your surroundings and I’d just like to point out that I’m sitting here in a shirt that I’ve had since 1995 and the and the reason for that is because it’s been just sort of a hectic day and this was the only.

05:24.73
Geoff
Anyway, so that’s the times folks. Well oh yeah.

05:35.00
Geoff
Good.

05:41.33
Jared
Clean thing that on the top of my drawer that I could find so we had a little but a little bit of sewage back up into our upstairs bathroom. No no, this is actually no anyway. So I’ll I’ll make a long story short and basically we found out when we we find we really got a plumber out today. We had to stay the night at my wife’s Aunt’s house where we.

05:48.00
Geoff
Jared is incontinent. Yes, that’s what we’re talking about.

06:00.96
Jared
None lived when we moved to Idaho but we fight we got a plumber out today and he had to run this crazy long powerful like snaking tool and he was ripping roots out of our sewer pipe. So yeah, everything inside our house is new like as of February like it was this is.

06:07.58
Geoff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, roots So Rotor router. Yeah.

06:19.56
Jared
Completely renovated home from 1940? Ah, but yeah, once those nice, clean, New Pvc Pipe hits the outside of the house you get into like a clay pipe with that has seams and if it pipe has seems and it’s been around for 80 years trees and other and bushes and such send their roots to try to get at the water. So anyway, I guess there was a buildup of roots and it was preventing the proper flow of water out to the sewage main in the street and some of that backed up so we were able to get that rooted out and then I guess.

06:38.40
Geoff
No.

06:53.85
Jared
I Guess psa for our listeners If you’re in a place that’s prone to having tree roots invade your sewage pipes you can buy root killing chemicals that you occasionally pour down your drain and it’ll help keep the root root growth to a minimum so that’s what we’ll be doing from now on. Ah.

07:07.98
Geoff
Yeah, yeah.

07:12.65
Jared
But yeah, so I’ve had kind of a weird hectic day running back and forth between the Ant’s house in our house and getting the plumber here and yeah, we had to go kind of. We had to leave like at ten thirty last night to go over to the ants house because we’re like well we can’t use any toilets here. So.

07:26.23
Geoff
That’s it I I didn’t I feel that pain um growing up my mom’s house where I grew up was built 1920 and roots have been like an ongoing problem like my whole life all the time once I start backing up call the router gets a snake guy and yeah, that’s been like a.

07:31.53
Jared
Over.

07:41.61
Jared
Is that why they call it a roto router because it spins and grabs the roots I never made that connection.

07:41.78
Geoff
Pretty consistent part of our life for many decades Huh Yep I remember that guy going out there then there’s that that feeder that exhaust pipe tube and and the roof and he just feed it down there and just next thing you know he’s just pulling up all this stuff and that’s.

07:52.94
Jared
Oh. Crazy.

08:01.31
Geoff
That’s what happens So this is why everyone tuned in learning about guitars and rotor roing and sewage backups. Also you might be tuning in because in case you somehow missed it I would say this is one of the bigger stories of the year that we can talk about this week I mean a lot of things have happened.

08:03.30
Jared
And and and and sewage backups and how to prevent them.

08:15.54
Jared
As far as far as church News Mormon History news goes for sure.

08:20.28
Geoff
Yes, yes, as far as personal news. Well I mean I but I told you about my guitar and everything’s coming up basis for me, but as far as church news goes you might have seen that allegedly purportedly. However, we want to say it a photo has surfaced that is supposed to be. Of actual Joseph Smith and for for so many years we’ often wondered if if a photo exists of the Prophet Joseph None has ever surfaced. That’s been Authenticated. You know we even see a picture as funny like my kids tonight we’re looking at the the doctrine in covenants for kids you know book in the back of it shows the profits up through president Hinkley. Even though we bought it well after 2008 when he passed away. They never even bothered like adding president motson to it when it was still in publication. But um, there’s photographs of every single prophet from bringham young on but not of the Prophet Joseph because it was just right before that when daerreotypes were becoming a thing right? He died in none was right on the cusp of photography becoming more more prominent. So.

09:18.14
Jared
Right? But then we we we come up with these like well it’s possible because we do have ah an actual photograph of like the nabu temple right? and so you know and things like that and so we know that at that time in that area photography technology was available and so.

09:25.71
Geoff
Now.

09:32.36
Geoff
It was just it was just very. It was nascent at the time right for sure and so we’ve often wondered does a photo of the Prophet Exist there had been none for as far as we’ve known until um, this story. The story’s been in the works for a couple of years I guess but a man named Dan Larson and his wife.

09:36.59
Jared
Right.

09:51.16
Geoff
On Saturday morning in March Twenty Twenty um they discovered what they think is photographic evidence of the Prophet. He’s a great-g greatat grandndson of Smith and then one of these effects passed down to him was a pocket watch that bore the initials of his great grandfather Joseph Smith the none the Prophet’s older son who was also the founder of the reorganized church later the community of Christ. Um, Larsson inherited the locket shortly before his mother’s death in 9092 its finial was bent. He couldn’t open it so he just kind of put it away. So so so basically because of the pandemic and they found time on their hands. Stuck at home. They kind of really got into it pried it open and found this face of a man and then. Long story short I’m sure I’m going to butcher a little bit of this but they worked with some historians from the John Whitmer historical association and some others and they also looked at the Joseph Smith desk mask and used computers and such technology and what have you to see if this was a match or what this might be and so they think that. This company that recognized daguerreotypes comparing it to the the death mask are reported ah that None of 21 features matched with with a 95% confidence interval which I don’t speak all that language. But I assume that just means they’re very confident that it matches up appropriately. So it took a long time to do this and we can I don’t think I’m cutting out too much extraneous detail even though it’s a pretty long article from Janna Reese that first started kind of talking about this but most signs here are pointing to this actually being a photo of the prophet which is fascinating to me I mean I think the none thing you asked compared to the classic portrait of him. And this is do you think they match. do you think it. do you think it it works Jared I mean what’s your what’s your thing or anybody.

11:27.56
Jared
Oh do I um I don’t know I can see it and like I’m no computer that can map out the facial features of None thing and match them to another so I feel a sort of like ill prepared to yeah or not ill-reparious ill suited to give this. You know a definitive opinion. But I mean I can see it I can see. There’s definitely a resemblance. He looks a little more What’s the word brutish maybe or and would make sense. He had a frontier life. He had a hard life being chased around and tarred and feathered and. Et etc and so he looks a little more rough I guess than I had kind of anticipated, especially with the portraits that kind of give him a nice cherubic kind of roundish face and right.

12:12.44
Geoff
I’d say cheruba is actually a good way to look at to describe I think most of the depictions of the prophet. That’s ah, that’s the perfect word that I Yeah yeah.

12:18.21
Jared
But like if you if you say okay, well take away the idealism of None century portraiture and add in the the realities a front to your life and a rougher afront to your life than most you know pioneers and and people of that era had then yeah I could I could see it.

12:35.62
Geoff
I mean I can I can So yeah I think I do agree the photo is someone who looks almost a little more like yeah Square Jawed a little bit rougher as you say some things are fine toox his hair also seems to be almost a different style the way it is than a lot of the depictions have often shown.

12:36.32
Jared
What do you think.

12:51.92
Jared
Although he does have kind of that little side Tuft thing you know so.

12:55.75
Geoff
He’s got the side tuft thing but it almost looks like he’s got it kind of down the middle then like his farm a nice and nice little oiled part over but that’s just hair that’s fine. But like I’ve looked at his death mask and looking at and the None some things are interesting to me because it’s like I so I can see it but then at the same time. Like some things I don’t quite see like it seems seem like his nose and some of his features still look in the death mask a little bit more like some of the paintings to pick him and the differences there and what’s intriguing to me is kind of how this is a rorschach test in general because a lot of people I’ve seen have seen the None photos and they’ll be like oh yeah, totally at gels and some other people I so they they’re like these are.

13:17.24
Jared
Ah.

13:30.72
Jared
Sure well I’ve seen some people and they’ll put up you know because the especially if you go to Church Museum Generally they display Joseph’s death mask right next to Hiram’s and so they’ll have that you know so.

13:31.14
Geoff
2 entirely different people like I’ve seen all sorts of comments across the board.

13:43.70
Geoff
Yeah.

13:46.98
Jared
I’ve seen people put up a picture of the 2 side by side and say I don’t know things I think this looks more like it’s possibly hiron’s photograph and it’s so interesting to me because again like you know these this article is like well we have to run through this fancy superduper computer program and I found 41 points of similarity blah blah blah 95% accuracy and other people are like. It looks more like hire to me. It’s probably higher. It’s like everybody becomes an armchair forensic historian you know which I think is one of the funny things about an event like this.

14:14.88
Geoff
Yeah I think it’s really interesting. Oh here’s here’s on Reddit on the x-mormon Reddit which you know tread lightly folks if you visit the x-mormon Reddit but um, even they someone actually took the death mask and put it on top of this new photo and sort of slowly blended it together and are like well it seems like everything here lines up like. Pretty perfectly quite frankly with how it should be so I don’t know his nose to me and the most at least from this one photo looks a little bit different than what I would expect his nose seemed like it had a little bit more I don’t know boldestness to it or a little more of a hook nose I don’t know. But.

14:35.36
Jared
Right.

14:42.62
Jared
Home.

14:50.65
Geoff
I hope the authenticate I mean I hope we can really know for sure I think a lot of science is pointing this in one way, the church um has of course jumped in on this and what’s fascinating is I have to think the church was made aware of this process for the past two years

14:55.33
Jared
Right.

15:06.64
Geoff
Even though it seems like they just kind of up and responded to it when everything dropped the other day but I like yeah.

15:09.28
Jared
I think they probably didn’t respond like say anything but None because there was nothing like you know the church is often more of a a reactor than an actor with stuff like this like they wait for. They’re not going to like draw attention to the thing until until it draws attention to itself. You know what? I mean.

15:13.32
Geoff
Well, they’re working to preempt it. What? yeah.

15:25.56
Geoff
Yeah, and I and I completely agree. So of course the church is mostly just saying this is interesting. We welcome You know new information about this and we but basically hope that people will continue to research it so we can find out for sure. The church by no means said, yep, that’s him and President nelson.

15:42.92
Jared
Well, right, right? But let’s so I would contend that the church actually you you could argue that they actually put more into the doubt side of things than the you know, maybe it is so so when I saw this story on Twitter i.

15:44.53
Geoff
Has received inspiration to confirm that it that is it.

15:57.89
Geoff
Or or.

16:02.92
Jared
I thought of our old guest from a year to ago what was it year and a half ago anyway, Keith Erickson he’s the I believe he’s still the head of the church history library in Salt Lake City he

16:06.62
Geoff
So Keith Erickson yeah yeah

16:14.59
Geoff
Boy if he’s not he should be.

16:17.98
Jared
Published a book called real versus rumor and we Geoff and I read it and we had him on the show and we had a nice interview with him anyway. So I I thought about him and I and I and I kind of added him on on ah Twitter and I said hey what do you What we all want you to weigh in on this and he responded with ah he had already. Ah, written up some stuff on Twitter and so first of all, he says in today’s case pay close intent. Oh he says here’s what I wrote about photos generally in real versus rumor I’ll read this real quick. It’s a short paragraph it says in order to definitively identify an actual photograph of Joseph Smith we would need an image that corroborates surviving physical descriptions plus a well-documented story about how he sat for the photograph historical context and a really clear story about where the photograph has been hiding for more than none provenance every claim of a photograph of Joseph Smith should be investigated very carefully. So and so then in the ah comments then below his tweet where he quoted himself. Ah he quotes the church statement and a site a segment of it anyway. And then I’ll skip most of it but down in the none tweet where he’s quoting the the church’s response. It says we concur that the daguerreotype and Locket. We’re created of materials and methods appropriate to the 1840 s however as nothing is definitively known about the locket’s history before 1992 we cannot draw a conclusion about who is pictured in the daguerreotype and then they end with what you mentioned this is we welcome the the recent publication of the image hope it will prompt. The discovery of additional information helpful to determining its authenticity. but but yeah so but what Keith Erickson is pointing out here is that there’s a big. Like 150 year hole in the history of this object that yeah we just simply have nothing nothing documented at least as far as we know about where this locket was from none whenever the supposed sitting of the photograph was to 9092 and that’s a long time. To have doubt about where this could have come from and who it could be so I I personally am ah weighing in on the doubt side even though I do see very you know to me. It’s very clear that it could very well be the man that we see in his death mask and the official portraits that we have. I I lean in on the doubt side of it because we just don’t know where did this lock it come from. We have a nice story from the man who who who in whose possession it is but we just don’t they there’s no there’s no documented evidence for what happened to this thing or where it came from before the early 90 s.

19:06.77
Geoff
Yeah, and that ah and I agree the provenance is the whole thing right? We just don’t know exactly where it came from and and what’s interesting is given the line as well. Like you know it apparently was um, came from Joe Smith the None Okay I think it it could be another smith as well as the main thing I’m getting at here.

19:06.84
Jared
That’s that’s that’s my ¢2 for what they’re worth.

19:24.34
Jared
That’s true. yeah yeah I mean there’s several brothers that it could be of Joseph it could be 1 of his children. It could be a nephew. It could be I mean a cousin there’s there’s a lot of Smiths that could bear a family resemblance.

19:24.90
Geoff
It could be in many many other Smiths who were around time or progenate Yes, but I’m.

19:37.47
Geoff
I Yeah so I yeah well I mean a less bulbous nose. So I think the more bulbous nose is the picture. Yeah I think he’s got a bit more of a of a clearly defined nose and in the picture looks like but more of a hunk you know and you like you were saying before we recorded.

19:40.63
Jared
And have a squarer jaw and a more bulus nose whatever less bulllus.

19:56.70
Geoff
People were almost like disappointed like you know is it like how you saying it like is Joe just Smith’s supposed to be a hot question is he? yeah.

20:01.10
Jared
That’s how people were like well do you think this is like more attractive than the the or you know than of the you know the official portrait we have or less so and I was just like why? Why are people debating on Twitter if this is hot or not for for the problem.

20:11.77
Geoff
And always’ absolutely more attractive I believe the photo is more attractive I I could see him out there playing that stick Pullle and stuff like that the cherub as you said you know less. So but this this oh yeah, this man this not to be trifed with.

20:16.89
Jared
You You could see him out on the farm splitting rails.

20:30.86
Jared
It’s a frontier man’s man.

20:31.31
Geoff
Also do here here’s 1 question for it I can’t you can’t tell him the photo for sure. But the man looks reasonably chiseled in his face. Joseph Smith we know he put on a few pounds near the end of his life compared to the previous period people do so it’s.

20:37.71
Jared
Sure.

20:43.49
Jared
As people do when they get to their forty. S I mean I guess he was 39 still

20:50.61
Geoff
But still all we can see is like that’s one that’s 1 photo from 1 angle you know there’s not a lot you can ascertain but from that look I don’t see someone in the picture who looks particularly like there’s a lot of like excess body fat going on but it’s extremely hard to tell based on 1 plotline.

21:02.10
Jared
Hey people put on hey people there’s different body types. Maybe he just had a little bit around the belly. You know, maybe he just his dies got a little chunky. You just don’t know how people put on weight. Yeah, who knows.

21:10.82
Geoff
I hope it’s the thighs I hope it it all goes to his thighs. It’s like ah every time I eat funeral potatoes Emma yeah good times. Well we’re gonna keep an eye on this who knows what happened I mean this story might exist or.

21:20.33
Jared
Straight to the thighs I would love to be I would love to be like for my skepticism to be washed away by further documentation of where this thing has been and where it’s come from and and like he says well. Also we have nothing.

21:27.68
Geoff
This might be all we hear about it.

21:38.83
Jared
We have no well-documented story about the historical context of him sitting for a photograph and that’s not terribly surprising because we know from other ah readings and such that he was a terrible like he tried to keep a journal a few times he it was a bad personal record keeper most of our records of Joseph come from.

21:42.48
Geoff
Yeah.

21:51.99
Geoff
Yeah, yes, who was very bad about.

21:57.49
Jared
Wilford Woodruff like being a really copious note taker in meetings and things like that and so yeah or or like stories you know, orally transmitted later on and so it’s not surprising that we don’t have a journal entry for him saying sat for a dagureotype today. What an interesting technology. This is you know like.

22:13.50
Geoff
The.

22:15.46
Jared
Sorry I don’t know I’d put on the old-timey fdr radio voice but like um beauty. Yeah, so it’s not surprising that there’s not that but still it makes you wonder like if the Prophet had sat for a photograph this brand new technology wouldn’t somebody have noted it um wouldn’t we have some sort of story. You know, kind of accompanying the occasion. Yeah, so I don’t know I don’t know like who knows that there’s none of undiscovered historical evidence out there just waiting for some archivist to stumble across so we’ll see we’ll see what comes up next.

22:33.69
Geoff
1 would think.

22:46.24
Geoff
So isn’t it curious that the you know the most pivotal prophetic figure in in the restoration. Joseph Smith is the the only one where we still have to kind of get an image of him in our heads based on on what we think we know about it like I find it curious I don’t know if it’s. It sounds silly but like I don’t think your face should be any stronger just because you can see a photo of Brigham young but I almost think like the myth around Joseph Smith can be even bigger because we have to develop our interpretation of what he looked like because we don’t have that which is just to me. It’s just kind of intriguing when you think about that from ah from you.

23:14.69
Jared
Sure. Sure like if you saw a photograph of George Washington and he kind of like hunched a little bit like that would totally destroy like this heroic image. We have of him from his official portraits in his military uniform you you? so it might kind of break some of the.

23:31.24
Geoff
Yeah, yeah.

23:35.85
Jared
Like the myth surrounding the great man and so yeah, maybe yeah, maybe it’s better if we don’t but again like you said he’s got that square jaw and he looks like a tough guy so I don’t know I think it can only make you go. Yeah, there’s a there’s a frontier profit that don’t we.

23:47.65
Geoff
There We go luya.

23:52.00
Jared
So as long as we’re talking about church history. Let’s talk about ah what happened yesterday Sunday July Twenty Fourth biggest annual holiday in the state of of Utah it was pioneer day and interestingly I live in Idaho as you know. In Eastern Idaho where there’ a big Lds population and I was expecting church to be all about pioneer day and it really wasn’t like there was hardly any mention of it at all. Ah they mentioned that our steak is putting on like a pioneer day celebration next Saturday but other than that like the toxin church were about like. Love and family and things like that and nobody really brought it up and then second hou second hour we talked about um, self-sufficiency like like yeah or you know and like you know, make sure you’re managing your finance as well. It was like the the least pioneered day. All point your days how what was it like ah out on the east coast did you guys talkck it up or yeah, so don’t know really so again I mean I know officially it is a utah state holiday. Um, it’s not officially recognized as a holiday anywhere in the united states or the world I believe I have a friend.

24:49.97
Geoff
I was a lot more about like covenants temple stuff like that. So no nothing. There were some some of the some of the hymns. Yes, but otherwise.

25:06.91
Jared
Um, who every year remarks that he’s he was born and raised I believe he lives in the Chicago area and I’m pretty sure he was born and raised in Illinois and he says I will start caring about pioneer day when the saints in the rest of the world start caring about Kasmir Pulaski day um which I guess is a very.

25:24.88
Geoff
Yeah, that’s that’s a big. Yeah.

25:25.87
Jared
Chicago Centric holiday right? Anyway. So I know it’s it’s interesting, but you know but I grew up in Western Washington and I remember pioneer day not be like a big deal but we’d talk about it. You know it would come up at church you know and in late july I knew what it was. We would do like pioneer activities in the summer when I was in primary. Pull sticks and things like that. So I just thought it was interesting. Um I haven’t got drew the real meat of what we were intending to talk about yet. But I just wanted to kind of get your take on it because I I do wonder about like how we treat history in our church and like. Is pioneer day. Is it a big deal is it not is it a Utah thing or is it a church thing. What do you think? Geoff.

26:06.50
Geoff
So I think specifically pioneer day is an is a latter day saint holiday even though it is a Utah state holiday because it it ostensibly celebrates just the founding of. The state the settling of the state. But it’s because the settling of the state by those of european descent. Okay, the settling of the state and the creation of Utah I get why they say that. But I think it’s just it’s intrinsically tied to the church. How could it not be and.

26:21.94
Jared
Oh.

26:33.44
Jared
Um, yeah, yeah.

26:36.74
Geoff
And so and like and so in that sense I almost feel like it should be I mean think about it. It’s a civic holiday but you always have like you had Gene B Bingham was the grand marshal in the days of none parade over the weekend which is cool. What a cool note to go out on when you’re the soon to be the erstwhile relief society general president what a great honor. But it’s typically like church leaders are the ones who head up. A what as far as I’m aware the days of 47 parade is handled at a civic level in terms of funding an organization I think I don’t think it’s church groups getting permits to do it I think it’s like at a civic level I think but but um, so so in that sense I I feel like we should focus on it being more of a.

27:06.14
Jared
Yeah, yeah, I’m pretty sure. Yeah.

27:16.41
Geoff
Church thing and less of ah of a civic thing and I think but with that that means that means it’s more justifiable to make it a bigger thing around the world I think we try to make pioneer day a thing globally. Um.

27:28.22
Jared
and and I think we have to an extent I remember I mean this was like honestly it was like 2008 I remember reading an article in the church news and it was about these youth like ldsyouth in the Ukraine doing like a a trek like a pioneer like a hand cart thing and they had also like.

27:42.68
Geoff
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:47.33
Jared
Made a special handcart like they made their own handcarts and they made one and they painted it up in the you know in like ukrainian trying of traditional decor and colors and stuff like that and they sent it to Utah to be like here’s our contribution to celebration of our heritage and it’s like. I loved that they they had kind of they had. They had obviously adopted a heritage because none of these people had pioneer like Mormon-american Pioneer Ancestors who crossed the plains they were. They were well converts and and children of converts in Ukraine and yet they felt like pioneers and people pushing handcarts was a part of their.

28:12.39
Geoff
Yeah, yeah.

28:24.20
Jared
And heritage and I thought that was kind of interesting and um it came I brought it up I was in you know in my grad program in history at the time and I brought it up in a class because somebody had made an argument specifically that you can’t like adopt heritage. You can’t adopt like ah like cultural heritage and I was like well there’s evidence that you can.

28:41.35
Geoff
Well, but and then theological I mean and heck you been theologically are we all adopted like as far as like seat of Abraham and all that kind of stuff I mean that that’s a whole other thing too right? Yeah, we can. We can adopt all kinds of things and I’ve had I want to let you talk about the main part but I’ve always I’ve I don’t know where I am really on pioneer day.

28:43.90
Jared
So yeah I mean.

28:47.70
Jared
Sure sure I mean right? yeah.

28:58.67
Jared
Oh.

29:00.62
Geoff
Like there’s this part of me that doesn’t love it because I don’t want to do it at the expense of the troop of pioneers abroad and it seems just frankly weird I mean like we have people in our ward who are so senior missionaries over a church’s ranch in Argentina that’s pretty much used I think for actual ranching and then like. Argentinian saints come into trek down there and I guess it’s cool I try to I’m trying to be more openminded about trek because like natively I’m not super big on the concept of Trek especially when you have members of the church around the world. They’re like pull the handcarts so you get in touch with what like your your religious forebears did.

29:34.69
Jared
You mean what? what? what percentage of religious forbears because how many handcart people were there. Actually you know.

29:37.40
Geoff
As like I i. Very small and and a small minority even ones who actually died. It was all in all a pretty the things we need to remember about pioneer day. Also um, latter day saints. This is ah super cynical stuff. We weren’t like trailb blazers on the planes we were following the Platte River we were basically following the oregon trail for a very long time. We followed the oregon trail for the majority of the trek west not that it was easy but we weren’t like blazing trails out west we were doing a lot of following what was there and it’s still difficult and only kind of near the very end did we actually break off from even a trail. The donner party had had. Taken care of to break off and go to immigration canyon so these are things. It’s like I don’t want to disparage what we went through because obviously there was great suffering and risk and sacrifice and all sorts of things associated with what the mormond pioneers did. But I think sometimes we get this notion that like they left na v and crossed the Mississippi River and it was just like. Open North America and no one knew what on earth they were going to do or how they were goingnna get there and it was just bushwhacking and trailblazing the whole way. You.

30:33.80
Jared
Yeah, no no I mean and that’s a funny thing if you actually do ebiden. It’s not like the church hides this stuff. It’s not like like you know it’s very clear that briegham young sent scouts out they founded the Salt Lake valley and reported back to him and he was like yeah we’ll go there. You know make sure we we go the right way.

30:40.53
Geoff
No no, they don’t.

30:51.80
Geoff
Specifically.

30:52.52
Jared
You know it’s so when he gets there and says this is the right place. It’s not because like oh like the heavens open. It’s because he knew from the scouting reports like oh yeah, this is the right place this is where we’re split. This is our destination with so.

31:02.50
Geoff
Um, and don’t forget they were also fleeing America folks I believe I read I read are.

31:06.40
Jared
Right? That was the thing I want to bring up before we we delved into the links that you’d sent me because ah I just thought it I saw the guy who who conducted the music in our soccer meeting. He was wearing an american flag tie and I saw other like kind of displays of like kind of patriotic colors and things and I was like when did. Did pioneer day become like a patriotic holiday because we know now from the council of 50 minutes that Joseph was very intent on just ditching the country because the constitution had failed and not not only ditching the country but coming up with a new constitution that would be better and serve. You know as like ah the protection of the people and we bring theology into the government of the saints.

31:44.77
Geoff
This and and part of the reason they also want to do this specifically. There’s quotes from other leaders who who want to go to Mexico because Mexico had a weak government like they said this on the record Mexico’s government can force squat and we can do what we want there as whole point.

31:53.78
Jared
Right? Yeah, exactly? Yeah So so yeah from Joseph Smith’s time with council of 50 they were planning on just ditching this whole us thing and then one brig and young takescks over and they scout out and they find you know this Salt Lake Valley 1 yeah, one of the reasons they intended to go there. Was to like to get out of the United States and yeah, like you said and they we will that they got a weak government there so they won’t they’ll leave us alone and we’ll be able to establish our own theocracy and but blah blah and so I just think it’s funny. That’s like I guess we’ll send our volunteers.

32:14.20
Geoff
Yeah, you imagine the dis of the yeah and then a year later rest Mexican-american War and they’re like hot geez but.

32:29.86
Jared
I mean but yeah, so I was just like when did it and it was None thing that was really interesting. There was None guy in the ward and he was wearing a flag a tie that was unmistakably a text. Ah the Texas State flag adapted into a tie now this guy I happened I know for sure born and raised in Idaho falls in the neighborhood. You know where we where we live and so I’m like I know this guy’s not texan was this the closest thing he had to like an american flag ti so he wore it for for for um pioneer day and it but again it just perplexes me because it’s like but why.

32:56.59
Geoff
Probably.

33:06.96
Jared
Maybe he knows from the council of 50 minutes that they were considering going to Texas as one of their destinations. So maybe or maybe I’m just.

33:11.87
Geoff
That was and that’s a whole other fun thing to look into because they wanted. Actually what do they want to convince Sam Houston to like turn over the Texas government to the saints and let them. Yeah, it was crazy.

33:18.92
Jared
Something like that or at least to seed a giant portion of the land to them and and being kind of cooperate anyway. So all that is being said, it’s not that much of a leap further to talk about what you know what was what brought on this discussion aside from it having been pioneer day yesterday. But Geoff found some interesting. Ah, links and and None ah Facebook post and another I think was that an article an op ed from the trib in the desert news and which is it which is more interesting than it being in the trib. But both of these ah were people you know saying.

33:41.44
Geoff
And it was an I think it was an opinion piece in the Desret News

33:53.52
Jared
Hey it’s great to celebrate pioneer day. You should be proud of your heritage and know where you came from if you you know, especially you know if you do you know descend from pioneers across the plains. Ah, but it’s important also to remember that these things didn’t happen in a vacuum and I’m paraphrasing here obviously but when you have a bunch of white but mostly white.

34:06.71
Geoff
Yeah.

34:13.50
Jared
Mostly western european north and northern and western european ah descended people enter a place that was previously or currently cocurrently inhabited by a native population something happens to None of those populations and the fact that. We continue to have predominantly white predominantly north and western european descended people inhabiting that ah that place that you know the Utah in Utah that tells you what happened like ah the native population was displaced and displaced is like the the most polite term for right in some term. In some cases killed in some cases enslaved imprisoned. What are not now enslaved not in Utah there I don’t think there is a a history of native american enslavement in in Utah at the time but the point being is that one person’s migration is another person’s displacement in ah in most cases, another thing that that’s important to remember and. To to bring enslavement back is that some of the people who came especially converts from the south they did bring slaves with them Utah was a slave territory until the federal government informed the the territorial government otherwise um Abraham o smoot like that’s a famous controversy on. Ah, the Brigham Young University Campus like we we talked about this story a little while ago that there are people who want to rename that building because he was a slaveholder and smoot is like the I know a lot of people who claim him as ah, as ah as an ancestor like he’s ah, a very prominent person in in Lds and. Utah history but he brought slaves with him so it’s like let’s yes, celebrate our heritage and let’s yes, be proud of where we came from and be proud to know where we came from and like look for the things that we want to emulate for those ancestors but let’s not do it at the expense of forgetting what the cost is of those things happening. And but and it’s not and this isn’t just history. It’s it’s a continual cost like someday there might be I hate you know I hate thinking this but someday there might be you know ancestors of russian colonizers in the U K and thinking talking about the the great stories of their russian forebears that came to this land and fought so hard to have. To find a place here and it’s like yeah, but what happened to the Ukraine right? You know so I don’t know that’s probably not the best analogy but it’s best I could come up with off the off the cuff.

36:33.57
Geoff
And well I mean it’s close. It’s close because I mean um, we can we could digress a lot about the whole situation in Ukraine right now because Russia is actively trying to wipe ukrainian identity ah out of the lands it currently occupies. And yeah folks indulge indulge me for a minute just to be clear.

36:43.83
Jared
Right? because yeah, according to Putin there is no ukrainian identity independent of russian identity. So.

36:52.73
Geoff
Parts of Ukraine about a fifth of the country currently occupied by Russia it’s not like the military is just hanging out and people are going about their lives. They are deporting ukrainians on mass to other parts of Russia they have changed the currency they are changing school curriculum. They are completely wiping out ukrainian identity and that is the goal in this territory.

37:08.85
Jared
Um, this is textbook I mean this is what you do when you tried to colonize something. There’s the reason why most Irish people don’t speak Irish It’s because you take away their language you take away their you know all the things so that you so that you can create a new identity among the people that you’re conquesting.

37:12.44
Geoff
Yeah, this thing.

37:22.12
Geoff
Yeah, yeah, and and it is textbook like I’ve been reading a book. Everyone should read it by the way called blood lands and it’s about Europe kind of between Hitler and Stalin like everything going on in the interwar period leading up through world war ii and all of that and everything you’re seeing that they did back then to try to like. Completely destroy the concept of polish nationhood for example, but but even also ukrainian nationhood was the thing back then so that’s read the book folks. It’s very good book. We enjoyed it I enjoyed it quite a bit for my book club. Um yeah I enjoyed this stuff you posted here this article because what’s cool.

37:40.95
Jared
Right.

37:49.60
Jared
Right.

37:55.10
Geoff
We can go back and forth about pioneer day and yes who was displaced who was not how weird is it that we have a civic thing where we have like floats about like the taylorsville temple or part of the days of 47 parade like like okay, whatever. But I do love. Couple things I love that church the church news this go around did publish a number of different stories about pioneers in other countries around the world and what it meant to to start up the church in those places and be a part of that I think that was terrific I hope they will do more of that because we need these kinds of stories also to get perspective on what it’s like for saints all around the world. And I’m not going to read through all of them now some were big feature pieces on None particular person or a couple of people in None country or some are like this one I found that just kind of checks off in alphabetical order every european country and has a couple of paragraphs about each and what the history is of of the saints there and the people who kind of helped the church get somewhere in these countries right. And the church in Europe is ah has a very different history because so many saints converted back in the early days but then they came to North America to help strengthen the church where it was at the time right? and and so as a result europe today is not heavily lattered. They say it might have been but then the church itself might not have survived so who knows but those are cool to read about. And I’m also loving though this new these new statues that went up right over this at the this is the place heritage park over there in immigration canyon this is a big deal I mean they added a 3 statues celebrating black pioneers is a black pioneer monument and you have I’m going to get them all wrong, but you’ve got Jane Manning James of course greenflake who was a slave and came over and then the ah the brothers Hark whales and Oscar Smith who were part of the vanguard who entered immigration can in the none place. The none group who came in in none and they’ve got some beautiful large statues of all of them as well as some. Ah. Monoliths I’m going to call it What do we call it just that they have writing about them behind them. My giant slabs I’m going to call them monoliths so it sounds creepy and and mysterious. Yeah, something like that. Um.

39:49.20
Jared
Sort of so so it invokes images of 2001

39:56.60
Geoff
This is great and they dedicated this over the weekend celebration to pioneer day had a lot of dignitaries and people who have been involved in telling these stories like the director of Jane and Emma of the Jane and Emma film as well as um, but I’m playing as well as ah, Malie Bonner who did his name is greenflake these stories these are stories that need to be told and I’m thrilled the church. However, late before who cares like that they’ve put these statues up there and they’re now part of the heritage park that we have that celebrates this entire entry into the valley. Awesome that they did this very happy about that.

40:25.82
Jared
Yeah I think it’s great I and I hope that this is a trend that continues that we keep on seeing more of this acknowledgement of diversity even though I mean again as we’ve said like the majority of these people were white. North and and Western European descended people but that doesn’t mean there weren’t diverse converts and people you know who joined in this movement black people. Native American people for sure like there. There definitely was some you know there was this peppering in of other cultures and other peoples and I love. Recognize that that is part of our history and and making sure that it’s I think I think part of this too is is by embracing even though it’s a minority of converts but embracing it and and emphasizing it I think it’s an effort to make. Church continue to be a more and more welcoming place for diverse peoples in the Present. You know? So anyway I like it I think it’s good.

41:25.24
Geoff
It is cool. Another story should ah folks who should really forget a chance. Oh yes, living around another one of these stories. Ah a firsthand account by Kendra Byby who was she’s a pioneer because she was the None black sister missionary called to serve a mission in our day. Yeah.

41:42.32
Jared
That’s really interesting. Um, my my wife’s family accounts many bybies among their descent. Ah their ancestors and so I wonder if there’s any kind of kind of connection to my wife’s family’s bibie name and this sister.

41:45.40
Geoff
Cools work.

41:54.95
Geoff
She so the funny thing is’ a photo of her. She went up serving in Brazil and she’s standing right next to a young ah certain elder Ulysses Suarez who served his mission at the same time.

41:58.50
Jared
Ah.

42:07.94
Geoff
And Sister Su Suarez so I think did the suares were that was that a mission romance did they come out of that is that where it’s I don’t know now there’s a judgment I got I’ve got ones who got married postmission I know they weren’t doing anything stupid during the mission. That’s fine. You meet somebody cool and you follow up good good for you.

42:12.48
Jared
I don’t know. But if so I have no judgment. You know that that those things these things happen.

42:25.12
Jared
Um, one last thing real quick. Ah well I think it’s a one last thing at least that I wanted to throw in here while we were on a church history topic was you found this great Lds living article of ah 12 things you didn’t know about the work and the glory because the work of the glory is.

42:25.75
Geoff
Good for you. Okay.

42:37.30
Geoff
Um.

42:43.15
Geoff
it’s it’s it’s a huge part of the zeitgeist Jared but yes I’m talking about it.

42:43.98
Jared
Still relevant I guess yeah so I want to really quickly just wax personal as I have and always do ah so I remember when I started reading these books I only read I think I read 4 of them and I just didn’t continue. But I I started I think in like none grade. So this is like 9094 ish maybe 95 and I remember doing like a book report in in class where I actually portrayed I acted and portrayed the prophet Joseph Smith myself and and gave the book report. In persona as Joseph I’m pretty sure everybody loved it and remembers it to this day. It was probably the best book record port ever given at Rose Hill Junior high and in Redmond Washington anyway so yeah I remember when everybody was talking about the work of the glory.

43:27.67
Geoff
And they all joined the church too As a result. Yeah yeah.

43:35.89
Jared
Remember I actually forgot this this the article the listicle ah talked a little bit about the films that were made and I and I had honestly forgotten that they had made some films of the books. Um, ah did they make films to cover.

43:47.55
Geoff
And I had not because I worked a de a book when some of these were being made and yeah, but I think they I think I mean there’s like there’s like 9 work in the glory books right? There’s only three films I think they.

43:55.36
Jared
All of the books did they did they cover the entire story. Okay.

44:04.82
Geoff
I Don’t know if this is like a Narnia situation where they just kind of picked a couple of the books and did them or if they compress them and try to do the whole thing I haven’t read the book.

44:09.34
Jared
Who knows? Ah so there’s nothing. It was funny too because we’re reading through this listicle. Nothing really seemed that interesting to me as far as like things you wish you had known about gerald lind or this work. Um, and and. And I want to be clear here I like Gerald Lu I actually think he’s a pretty good writer. My favorite Gerald Lud book which I’m going to recommend to our ah readers our listeners who are readers is ah called the alliance. It’s a book. He wrote I want to say in like the mid to late eighty s and it’s great. It’s one of these dystopian stories. It’s science fiction. I think it’s really good. Oh yeah, it’s like everybody go and the next gerald book you read make it the alliance. It’s great, but you don’t have to take my word for it. Ah, but None thing that did make me smile in this little listicle is ah number None it says someone else tried to write the work in the glory dun du dun.

44:46.99
Geoff
That’s right up That’s right up your alley. That’s your that’s your yeah.

45:03.21
Geoff
That S go B is.

45:06.58
Jared
Says Lund wasn’t the none person who tried writing the work in the glory moe the ricks college donor I mo’s the last name here the ricks college donor who asked for lund’s help. Not only came up with the idea but also attempted to create a draft. It didn’t go very well though. And Lund recalls that moe later told him it’s obvious that I can’t do it parentheses. Moe’s wife jokingly added. That’s for sure. But I just think that they the fact that they added that into the article is really funny and and the fact that the wife is just like totally. Not shy about disparaging her husband and his ability to write write a ah competent. Ah.

45:44.15
Geoff
Oh but it’s classic. It’s it’s the classic loving Latterday say you know wife jokey stuff. You know? Yeah, that’s you know you got your rib your ribb him all the ribbing.

45:52.11
Jared
I guess I just thought it was so funny as like oh man this this why this guy’s wife totally diggged on him and then they put it in the article like pormo anyway, if you have such interest interest in such things and if you are a work with the glory fan and I have no judgment if you are I just I stop reading after four because. Lost interest I was much more interested in reading um histories than Teni is among Nephi’s I was totally into those books as a kid too. Um, no I was just more interested in reading histories rather over historical fiction. That’s the person I grew into as it tested to the fact that I then went on and did a master’s in history. But.

46:12.73
Geoff
So the nephite were nephi tor tennis shoes way better series. Obviously that’s the 1

46:31.31
Jared
You know if my point is if you like Joe Len is an author as I do and if you like the work of the glory specifically check out this listicle from Lds living you might find it more interesting than I did yeah oh for sugar. Yeah.

46:39.47
Geoff
It’s like the listicle is reaching to have None facts though. Some of these could be compressed into one fact I mean like he said like ah it almost never happened and he said no, that’s basically one when it mentions that um someone else tried to write the work in the glory. That could be folded into the next one that says how where the idea came from in the none place because it mentions again that mo tried writing a draft readers but couldn’t make it work and then he approached London to do it I feel like we’re really trying to get to the number None here folks that for some reason? Yeah, but you know good good times.

47:01.37
Jared
Yeah, yeah, it’s stretched. It’s like butter scraped over too much bread kind of a thing. Um, but the the other thing I found interesting is that it mentioned specifically that he wanted to get ecclesiastical approval. He like sent it up the chain to like church leadership.

47:15.48
Geoff
I he was well he was a sal so he was a 70 at the time so he was.

47:20.30
Jared
Right? And they are pretty controlling like you know when you keep a journal as ah, a general authority or as an air authority 70 even if like the church will then requisition your journal like it becomes church property the journal that you keep during that time. Yeah, um, and so they’re pretty they they keep a tight lid on what you do when you’re.

47:28.51
Geoff
What? what.

47:36.12
Geoff
Sure. So.

47:37.20
Jared
As a general or area Authority so it makes sense that he asked for ecclesiastical permission but it it basically said like the church you know the the the leaders basically said it was okay as long as is that his content read. It didn’t raise any red flags and is like and it didn’t So yeah I mean it’s definitely.

47:50.62
Geoff
It did I know I saw that part too. Don’t worry everybody.

47:55.86
Jared
It’s a it’s a work of historical fiction. But but it is definitely a devotional work as well. He is writing from a perspective of faith to an an audience of faith full latter-day Saint people who want to view the history in ah in a you know in a lens that is going to be inspiring. So.

48:11.79
Geoff
So there.

48:13.75
Jared
Makes sense that he he wouldn’t want to put any red flags in there because that’s not what that’s not the book he was trying to write.

48:17.81
Geoff
I remember when the movies came out the first one was Pg but the None one was pg 13 and I it was just some some pioneer violence and ah yeah, and ah, but but remember like some people were like oh my goodness I don’t know if I can have my children watch this now.

48:21.39
Jared
What is it because like they had like some some violence was other like Hans Mill type stuff. Yeah.

48:37.62
Geoff
No, what will I do this is a different this rogues. This was ah this was in ah bear in mind this was kind of right when the the Pg 13 Lds film was like that that was a risky move at that period in history like we were just going to kind of get near saints and soldiers.

48:37.78
Jared
It well at least not until they’re 13 You got to got to go with what the mpa says.

48:48.78
Jared
Well.

48:54.38
Geoff
But we weren’t in a place where movies like freetown or the Sara top approach things like that could happen. It was kind of a big deal. We thought we were really going oh boohoo boy by all. Also fun fact. Saints and soldiers originally given an r rating they had to cut it down. Yeah.

49:00.56
Jared
Um, everybody really I mean there was some pretty heavy stuff in that film like there was some you know deep content that you know make it was supposed to make you uncomfortable so I could kind of see that.

49:09.22
Geoff
Yeah, yeah.

49:15.59
Geoff
Oh and I was uncomfortable all right? Ah so so our good old friend Sam Brunson there um he this is ah something he’s talked about for years but here we go again. Girls should be passing the sacrament full stop.

49:19.18
Jared
Ah.

49:32.43
Jared
Um, okay.

49:34.30
Geoff
That’s his argument. It’s an interesting argument because it’s a reallyly kind of intriguing now before you tune out because I think anyone could say oh come on now like we’ve got this in the back like we’ve got this figured Out. We know how we do it The the deacons passed the sacrament and Yada Yada Yada His arguments are okay. I think I try I Want to I want to lean on the more of this the strictly doctrinal theological side of it because you can ah I don’t like the whole idea that you know and that people try to say well men need to use have the priest didn’t do these things because they’re not naturally service oriented and it helps them Blala Bla Blah Blah Blah We don’t need any of that and.

50:05.74
Jared
Boo Nope None of that.

50:09.47
Geoff
And I do believe we should let women feel important and I would like I want to include them in every way possible in our worship and in our rights and all those sorts of things that that is reasonable but the main thing he gets on here as a reminder is that the doctrine of covenants does not actually specify who passes the sacrament around. Specifies who administers the sacraments says very clearly in section 20 neither teachers nor Deacons have authority to baptize administer the sacrament or lay on hands and we might be kind of like you know we’re being very particular with the verbiage here. But I think we have to remember that administering the sacrament means. Blessing these you know having the sacrament there and kneeling and blessing it and then however it gets disseminated the the administration of the sacrament is not the passing of the sacrament It is the blessing of the sacrament and.

50:54.44
Jared
You know what’s interesting about that point then too it just occurred to me is that that also means that laying out the trays and things is not um, the administration sacrament either and and we create this division. You know deacons can pass teachers can pass but like when I was growing up. Ah, deacon couldn’t go and lay the trays out and put the bread in the trays and filled the water cups they had to be those were that was the teacher’s job and I always thought that was like there was a doctrinal or scriptural reason for that and there isn’t.

51:17.24
Geoff
Yeah. Yeah, so how did we get that. That’s what I wanted then how did we get to this place where we have outlined those duties specifically for teachers and deacons and that we treat it I mean I don’t want to beer to a reverend here. But you know we treat as Gospel I I grew up in the same thing like we read stuff like this is which.

51:30.64
Jared
Um I don’t know.

51:39.50
Geoff
What you can do as a deacon you can pass the sacrament once you become a teacher you still have that ability into theranic priesthood and you can also prep it once you’re a priest you can bless it. You call a baptized people if you want to Yada Yada Um, the priest stuff is a little more laid out. Obviously it’s right there in the scriptures but like where where did we. To develop this mindset for the other offices within the priestot as far as what they can and can’t do.

51:57.62
Jared
I don’t I don’t know, especially since if you think about it like so you know so the the priests are up there and they bless it and then they hand it across to you know the table to teachers and deacons who then pass it. But then you know a teacher deacon will walk. You know in a standard. You know Lds chapel they will walk to the edge of a row of seats you a pew or whatever and then hand it and let the rest the whoever’s sitting there pass it on down the line. So. It’s not just deacons passing the sacrament. It’s. Moms and daughters and sisters and its little little kids. You know who are under baptism age or under priesthood age. It’s like every every one of those people is technically passing the sacrament and so I mean if there really was a strict requirement that it had to be a priesthood holder that had to be a deacon teacher priest Etc that we would. Leave every other row blank empty so that they could hold onto the tray as they walked down the line. Um, so obviously yeah, there’s there’s a lot there’s leeway in there that we’re not exploiting or haven’t exploited for whatever reason like you said that’s a good question about how it came to be I’m sure there are people who. Know that better archivists and people who have read into the histories of how it came to be that because you know what there’s not even a scriptural justification for there is for receiving the priesthood. No actually no because we made it so that it’s there’s no there’s no minimum age. Um, or back. Yeah for receiving the priesthood as evidenced by the fact that within the last couple of years we made it so that eleven year olds can receive it. Um and then also there’s no reason why then that you do a deacon from this year age to that age and a teacher from this age to that age like it was never that way in the early restoration we created this.

53:34.72
Geoff
Oh and I have thought I have thoughts about that. So.

53:45.29
Geoff
Sure I.

53:47.49
Jared
Tradition an administrative tradition perhaps for stipulating what ages you at what ages you advance to the different offices right.

53:52.75
Geoff
And and that can of course be yeah and all that can be changed like we talk about that and also how we it’s not the age thing. But how we got rid of the high priest group and changed that entire structure and just folded in with the elders quoru right? I mean like we can.

54:02.70
Jared
Right? so so yeah so I mean it would not be surprising to me if we saw young women passing helping with the passing of the sacrament or laying out the trays and filling the cups and things like that. There’s no reason not to it’s just that we haven’t done it that way and as far as I know aside from. Strongly worded blog posts from people I respect like Sam Brunson I think he’s he’s got a good mind. Um, but beyond. You know his types of blog posts. We haven’t seen a reason for that to change coming down from leadership or coming up from the ranks. Ah.

54:34.15
Geoff
So Jared should should we March on temple square and elevate the issue we might get xed but then they will change the policy after the fact. Yeah.

54:42.32
Jared
As go say that usually works right? Usually they respond really well to activism at Public Activism That’s that’s that’s the main thing that the church really likes.

54:49.17
Geoff
When you when when you embarrass the church in particular, they respond very well to that anyway, but it is a good point and this actually made me do some some good thinking and now I actually want to research this issue more because I think like a lot of people in the church I’ve just taken for granted that the structure and the duties are what they are.

54:55.88
Jared
Yes.

55:08.60
Geoff
Because they are what they are and I’m not agitating for change specifically. But it’s it’s a good reminder to like actually look into what our doctrine says and what is the history of what so I’m going to do more of that now, especially because now that I’m in the bishopric I’m going to be like hey so check this out I was reading something. You need to call up the young women None through None year old class get them and and then I’ll get kick and then I get kicked out of the bishop brick and then I that’s how I get out is the point. Oh I’m sure it does. Yeah.

55:28.61
Jared
Does the I’m sure the handbook stipulates very specifically who can pass the sacrament. Yeah, it’s been a while since I’ve perused that handbook let’s just stick with our friend Sam Brunson for a minute. He wrote another interesting post on. Common consent and he’s addressing. Well the title of the post is on laws related to abortion and he’s kind of responding to ah the church’s official statement on the Dobbs decision. Um, and I don’t want to delve into it here. I don’t know I don’t like we often kind of.

55:58.92
Geoff
So.

56:04.61
Jared
Dip our toes into the political waters when when you and I are hosting elise this well not just you and I I’ve heard it with multiple of your many of your cohosts just yeah Devin never Devin never gets political at all. Um, but ah, but.

56:09.70
Geoff
So no, no, no, it’s no, it’s just do I Know it’s just us.

56:20.86
Jared
Anyway, the point is he’s he’s responding a bit to ah, kind of what the church said and then also just responding to the general idea of um, especially because since Utah’s laws a lot of I’ve seen a lot of kind of dobbs apologists defending Utah’s um abortion control laws saying it just it’s just a basically encoding what’s in the church handbook into state law and ah brother Brunson does a really good job of kind of poking holes in that idea and why it’s very difficult to take guidelines of. You know suggestions of behavior from a church publication and then try to codify that into a state law and how those things it’s not easy to just It’s not an a to b and you know b equals a kind of transition. Ah, you you hit speed bombs and one of the big ones that I saw and and I think this might have been more in the comments section than in the actual article itself. But for example, like so the the Utah law requires you know you know it acknowledges that it may be justifiable to have ah an abortion if if the pregnancy is the result of rape. But then the. Um, the law in Utah requires proof like that you have to have filed a police report to you know so that that the rape is on record and that just introduce all sorts of problems because of the nature of rape and because of the nature of familial rape and things like that.

57:47.27
Geoff
M.

57:49.59
Jared
Um, but but then but then so then you know so not only is is it a legal like really ah sticky situation legally. But also then if you try to like reverse and go back to the source the quote unquote source of this all does the church policy require a police report does the church require a policy require. Some sort of proof of rape. It doesn’t have anything like that and so I think and I think that’s the sort of the what I the main just that I got out of this post was the idea that yeah I mean it’s good for you to have your standards and if you derive those standards from guidelines from the church. That’s your prerogative to do so but when you take. Church manual guidelines and try to enforce them and encode them as law that applies to a large population of a significant portion of which is not members of your church. We start hitting problems and then we also start. Um. Ignoring nuances that the law has to be able to acknowledge and so I don’t it was in it. A very interesting post and I and I think it’s it’s even if you disagree with Sam Brenson on this in a lot of our listeners may it’s still good food for thought I think it’s a good way to consider something a little outside of what you had considered before.

58:59.17
Geoff
Yeah, and I don’t have much more to say about it. But I liked it for the same reasons you did in that I think we easily fall back on those those exceptions as outlined in the church like that’s an easy thing to just work through if it is that situation but it’s not always the case and it’s important to have that nuance and distinction and just thinking that. At the end of the day. Yeah, it’s lawyers making decisions. It’s not even doctors necessarily sometimes and that that gets very complicated so you kind of see why you can’t just simply say file codify what the church does and all will be Well, It’s a little bit more difficult. But.

59:24.70
Jared
Yep.

59:30.10
Jared
And you know that’s been attempted before and not just us history. But in world history trying to codify religious principles and precepts into law and it generally doesn’t work. Well you know like. It just it generally doesn’t andm not saying that you can’t use your religion or your faith or your beliefs as like a basis for your understanding of what’s right and wrong or what should be a law but when you try too hard to marry the None things religious principle and enforceable encoded law. It starts to get messy. And we’ve seen that you know with the puritan settlements ah in you know, colonial America and we’ve seen that with catholic settlements elsewhere in the world like we’ve seen that in the history of great Britain where many of our listeners dissent from like it gets. it’s it’s not it’s often best to try and.

01:00:16.28
Geoff
Um, yeah.

01:00:27.70
Jared
Put a ah ah line of separation between here’s what I believe and you know have faith is true and here’s what I want to enforce other people to have to do as well. So what’s next.

01:00:37.45
Geoff
Good points. Well um, well we’re we’re wrapping up here. But since we were sort of talking politics but abortion is more of a moral issue where political issues you know define how we how we deal with it and enforce it. This is much more straight politics but the. Subjects are latter-day saints one of whom has been a guest on the show a couple of times Evan Mcmmo is now running for Utah senate right? So you’ve had the ah sorry sorry I’m going to say he’s he’s running for the Us senate in Utah so um, the republicans got their whole primary thing out of the way and Mike Lee still prevailed so they tried to out primary him didn’t really go anywhere but he did.

01:01:00.54
Jared
Um, well US senate representing Utah.

01:01:14.70
Geoff
You know Becky Edwards did pretty well. But now this is the big show here because Evan Mcmullen is running as an independent he always was he was sitting out the republican primary he he I think felt that was not a good use of his time and of course he’s built up his political profile in the past. 6 years or so since we first spoke to him and he ran for presidents against None Donald John Trump um and so anyway straight politics. But I think it’s fascinating just with the and the context of what goes on in Utah what plays well in Utah and I am surprised that they set up the election were held today according to a poll. Ev Mcmuln is within None points of Mike Lee who’s still winning but None points is getting close the margin of error was 3 point four None points so you’re getting close to that so that’s actually better than I expected I almost think so much of this stuff is just for It’s the show. It’s the drama. It’s what the media loves to report on because it’s interesting. But at the end of the day Mike Lee’s still going to get like 70% of the vote. You know I kind of expect that kind of thing so this is interesting at the very least to see what’s happening there and and Mike Lee’s Disapproval rating is higher than his approval rating. We’re not endorsing anyone None way or the other. But I think it’s fascinating to watch what who really are None conservatives going after each other one of whom just thinks one of the other one has sold out and he’s just saying I’m still going to be a conservative mcucus with them I’m just like not going to do the same things Mike Lee did like he’s just he’s presenting. Mcmullen’s presenting himself as a conservative alternative without the baggage more or less and so it’s just kind of fascinating to watch.

01:02:41.57
Jared
Well, it’s interesting because it’s it’s kind of I mean new candidate same rhetoric in a lot of ways because you know everyone’s talking. Especially. Especially on the conservative side of things you you get this idea of like the principled conservative like that we’re going back to principles and that’s kind of what Evan Mcmillan’s line is ah it’s just that the principles he’s advocating for are I think a little different from what Mike Lee would say his principles are like I think they I think they do from what I have. Be able to see I think they do have different ideas of what being conservative means? Um, but yeah, but but the the whole idea of like I’m the principled conservative that is not a new take when you’re running you for a seat in Utah Arizona Idaho Indiana

01:03:15.12
Geoff
So I think that’s probably true. Yeah, it’s.

01:03:24.84
Geoff
not not not not completely but yeah, yeah so be curious to see what happens it I remember back in 16 when Mcmullen right took a sizable share like if all of his votes if all of the Mcmul votes had gone to Hillary Hillary would have won Utah over Trump instead. But.

01:03:31.12
Jared
Texas Etc. So.

01:03:39.91
Jared
Bright which was interesting.

01:03:44.20
Geoff
Which is interesting. Yeah, so it’s curious to follow this um a little more strictly on what appeals to latter-day saints I think some of mcmuln’s political. Ads have been very interesting. Um like one shows him right now with his wife talking about how they’re raising their kids to have good values and we need to bring values back to the senate and all that kind of stuff. It’s just. Evan only got married like last year and he married a woman who already had kids. That’s great for them. I’m not I’m never knocking anyone regardless of their situation but it is the way it plays it almost seems like here I am Evan and my wife and the the children we have made together and been raising since birth and the values we’ve given them what ah when the.

01:04:07.60
Jared
Right.

01:04:16.50
Jared
Right.

01:04:20.21
Geoff
And if you don’t know of mcmuln you would do it assume that and that would play well and Utah the whole family values thing and the family dynamic but you know and that’s not saying he’s not a great stepda I’m sure he’s one of.

01:04:23.15
Jared
Right? I mean if you want to get really technical I mean if he’s been in that marriage for a year he for a year. He has been helping raise children. So right? but it but it it that but it does feel a little misleading. There is like well yes you are helping raise these children.

01:04:31.72
Geoff
And I’m sure he’s doing fine and and Evan we know you listen all the time button. But.

01:04:40.67
Jared
As of the last you know one None of their lives. You know, whatever how old the however old the kids are but no, but good for him I am glad he found somebody I know he that was something he’d been working on for a long time I’m glad that he got instant family because I’m sure he wanted kids. Ah but I do raise an eyebrow at ah.

01:04:41.61
Geoff
Something Yeah, some like that That’s just kind of funny. But for.

01:04:58.56
Jared
Capitalizing on the political value of said children. Ah I felt that way just tangentially I listened to Adele’s latest album a few weeks ago and and I thought overall it was great but there are a couple times where there’s there are recordings of her son I think he’s like 10

01:04:59.39
Geoff
Of the kids. Yeah, it’s a little little interesting but.

01:05:17.43
Jared
Like you know or or younger yeah younger anyway, but she’s talking having these old conversations about her divorce and stuff with her child and clips of it made it onto the album and I was like feels a little exploited if they’re Adell maybe leave your child out of it. Ah out of your.

01:05:25.85
Geoff
So that’s randomly interspersed. Also it’s ah it’s a bold move when you try to make the the impressive concept album and you interweave like spoken word segments that are supposed to mean something that’s risky because you I mean I think the killer I think Brandon flowers another lad Desin did it pretty well though on the on pressure machine if you’ve heard that killer’s record.

01:05:41.55
Jared
Yeah, it is risky.

01:05:47.89
Jared
Sure sure I’m just saying like let’s let’s let’s let kids be kids and maybe not work them into your divorce album or your political campaign. But that’s just me.

01:05:51.30
Geoff
Which has actual.

01:05:56.99
Geoff
Yeah, if I use if I use my kids for politics people would would think I’m not succeeding as a parent and so I would be less likely to they feel like what is’s for allw with your children. Yeah, we don’t have to touchch on all of them. But yeah, go ahead.

01:06:03.39
Jared
I think most most parents would say that hey let’s a let’s rapid fire the rest of this so I just want to say Ashley Hatch I think this is nice. It’s cool. She was a prominent soccer playing athlete at Byu and she now plays for the Us women’s team. She was. Recently received an esp award from Espn I don’t follow soccer I don’t follow the esbs. Ah but I respect that we have a success like I know what it yeah that it’s nearly impossible to make it as a professional athlete and we have this great lds example of a professional athlete. Making it and get in awards and I say good on you Ashley hatch good job.

01:06:44.20
Geoff
And yeah, and yeah and you should know I mean getting awards run by temporal worldly institutions is what matters in this life I mean that’s absolutely true. Another quick one here over in Angola they’ve broken ground on the None chapel.

01:06:51.10
Jared
Then I’m I’m for it.

01:06:58.51
Geoff
And as they describe the central african country of angola I guess I’ll give angola central Africa but I think of a more southern african but okay, whatever fine. It’s I mean it’s just right next to above Namibia. It’s one of the few portuguese ones? Yeah, um, so there is a stake in Angola Center around the capital city of luwanda.

01:07:04.93
Jared
Do they do they speak is that one of the Portuguese speaking.

01:07:16.89
Geoff
But it’s the None time they’re going to have their first. Ah, you know actual dedicated building in the entire country which is cool. Ah good for them. Angola has a a difficult history lengthy civil war I believe they still have like a sickle and um and a machine gun on their flag as part of their flag it. Ah if if memory.

01:07:31.99
Jared
I Believe that’s true. Yeah.

01:07:35.37
Geoff
Memory serves but today Angola has over 4100 members in the country and it’s changing rapidly but largely portuguese speaking fun facts the capital city. the the wanda is the largest portuguese speaking capital city in the world.

01:07:50.31
Jared
Interesting bigger. Oh yeah, so pals pretty well highly populated, but.

01:07:53.21
Geoff
It’s got more people than brazilia and Brazil for example I doubt it has more people in Sao Paula the old capital but but that’s still pretty impressive and luannda andgo has got a lot of its money coming in from petroleum reserves right now. Luwanda is None of the most expensive cities in the world for expats and I always appreciate that. I don’t know just like the contrast that draws because you assume like yeah if I had to go work and I was living in in a country in Southern Africa it’s going to be fine but in all reality it’s going to be extremely expensive for you to live there for a number of reasons as an Exp Bat so ah pretty cool for the saints. There.

01:08:21.42
Jared
Um, that’s just that’s really interesting.

01:08:27.31
Geoff
And they’re supposed to have it completed by about a year from now next summer. So.

01:08:28.47
Jared
And then continuing with rapid firere news out of Africa in South Africa there was there is a youth center and this is interesting because that was your our story was about stake center but now this is ah more of a municipal I think type building it was ah it’s called the oom. Zozi youth in business center in Peter Maritzburg in South Africa well but in South Africa’s province of quazulu naal so that sounds a little more.

01:08:51.58
Geoff
So that’s definitely the native zulu based languages. Yeah, yeah, that okay so that part’s legit. The other part sounds a little bit more like Acon’s

01:09:02.95
Jared
Anyway, the point is there was there is this great youth center that’s supposed to be helping educate youth and help them kind of get a leg up and elevate themselves through learning more about business and developing themselves professionally and it was severely damaged in a hailstorm and the church stepped in and has helped to repair the roof of that youth center. Garnering Goodwill in the community and but I think also just showing that you know say what you will about in a in a I’m sure some of our listeners were about some of the things that the church does and you know a lot of people question motives and stuff. But I I love seeing that the church is like always 100% for service and helping especially in places that are focusing on development and raising people out of poverty and changing the course of people’s lives in that way and so I think that’s great that the church is stepping in and saying like hey this is a place that helps people we want to help people you damage your roof. We’re gonna help you out.

01:09:44.10
Geoff
The.

01:09:59.71
Geoff
Amen that’s good stuff. Do we want to talk about president Nelson and labels or is that a whole big subject that we can’t even get into right now.

01:10:03.44
Jared
It is a whole big subject. Um, and but you know let’s you know, usually when I’m on the show we go an hour and 20 or so it’s an hour ten. So let’s just wrap it. Let’s let’s set a record with Jared unless you want to talk about president Nelson Label it’s a very short.

01:10:14.82
Geoff
Well okay, oh but oh by rap it you mean end it not like let’s wrap that gribbty raptastic it’s rapid rapid up. Well do yeah, everything is all ripty rap tastic. It’s like what rap was like in the late 80 s and early 90 s when rap was like.

01:10:23.26
Jared
Oh my gosh did you sit? Did you just say ribbety raptatic. Okay, ah.

01:10:33.25
Geoff
Yo, what’s some man we’ rep and rep and rep and everything’s rippty raptatic because nowadays rap is like I will kill you. It’s totally big. It got very different. Yeah lots of generalizations here from you. Oh yeah, I’m I’m actually only ah paraphrasing a Mike Berbiglia comedy bit from 2006

01:10:39.54
Jared
What that’s an ugly stereotype that is an ugly stereotype. I see okay I’ll allow it I’ll allow Mike Ber biglia

01:10:52.93
Geoff
It’s it’s a very good one the way he satirizes the Iraq war but brilliant, brilliantly done I’ll probably edit this out. Ah ah so all right? Well we’ll call it there but president Nelson at a post on July Twentieth go read it. Good reminder about labels and I think that’ll that’ll cover it there Jared anything to promote.

01:11:11.54
Jared
Oh it’s I hope it’s not dead. It’s mostly on me I’ve really dropped the ball on this and if my brother’s listening I’m so sorry Shark I really want to do my part to revive it so stay tuned for future episodes of the Jean-luc Pi Podcast maybe I hope

01:11:11.87
Geoff
Where’s your http://startrekpodcast man what happened to the podcast.

01:11:30.44
Jared
In the meantime while I have been quite disappointed with the picard show I highly recommend everybody. Go watch strange new worlds ah the the newest star trek series. It is it is it is the star trek series I’ve been wanting for the last twenty years so go watch. Yeah, it’s really good.

01:11:42.90
Geoff
Wow! What’s the endorsement. Okay, we’ll go watch that and folks you know, listen us wherever you get your podcast. We’ll do hey leave us reviews. We haven’t asked for someone a while. So if you get this on Apple Podcasts drop us a review or on Spotify leave us a review. We’d depreci it. So.

01:11:56.34
Jared
Also I think you have a Patreon is that correct Geoff.

01:12:00.57
Geoff
Yeah, it is a thing is a thing you can help financially support the show at http://patreon.com/thisweek in mormons which really, we’re asking you for like $3 a month three bucks a month that’s literally less than a dollar a week okay so this isn’t even like a cloying ad with Sarah Mclalan and some suffering puppies where they say. It’s like ¢60 a day ¢60 a day adds up to be a lot more money I’m literally asking you for something that’s like a grand total of like ¢80 a week folks ¢10 a day. Okay, ¢10 a day and and I will send you a picture of the animal or.

01:12:31.44
Jared
That’s a bargain.

01:12:38.42
Geoff
Host you are helping. Okay.

01:12:38.99
Jared
And do you view some of your cohosts as animals is that what you were just saying there. Geoff.

01:12:41.57
Geoff
Yes, yes, yes, you will. You will get a random photo of just of Devin Thorpe in your mail one day for no.

01:12:48.71
Jared
Ah, or or the or the animal you most associate with each host like it like you send a pictureel of and a picture of a narwal and it’s like this is my cohost Jared you helped you help keep him on the air.

01:12:57.73
Geoff
Well, it is um, old school ah Twitter followers might remember by tradition in the last session of general conference. Probably just to kind of stay with it because I think you run out of steam near by the end. We would always start tweeting out who someone’s patronus was like whoever speaking we just decide that was their patronus. You know the Harry Potter charm

01:13:07.89
Jared
Ah.

01:13:14.23
Jared
Sure sure I don’t know why I chose that. But that’s what popped in my head.

01:13:17.49
Geoff
Yeah, so Jared now I know you will be a narwal so got that one covered well that was fun all right folks? Well thanks for taking the time to listen this week and we look forward to talking next week Jared my friend till we meet again. Buddy have a good rest of your ah late summer thanks

01:13:29.27
Jared
If we ever meet again. It’ll be zion to me.

01:13:33.85
Geoff
I can’t even top that all right folks this has Ben Twim have a great week talk to you soon. But-bye.

 

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