EP 562 – Are Latter-day Saints Losing Their Religious Identity?

TWiM_EP562_Latter_day_Saints_Identity_Politics
As we dial back on Church programming, is political tribalism filling the void?

Welcome back! We hope you had a nice Christmas with those people important to you. What a great time to commemorate the birth of our Savior.

Kurt Francom is back to end 2021 with some excellent Latter-day Saint news. Make sure to visit Kurt and his associates at Leading Saints to learn how to be a more effective leader.

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Transcript

00:00.00
Geoff Openshaw
Hey what’s up happy New Year everybody almost happy strange weekend in between Christmas and New Year it’s always an odd week this week but anyway welcome to this week in mormons I’m Jeff Openshaw your host and founder happy to be here happy to be joined this week by none other than Kurt Frankham from Kurt Francom (Leading Saints) what’s going on there.

00:15.64
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Hey Jeff aren’t you aren’t you also chairman of the board or something like you need a good legacy name title.

00:18.69
Geoff Openshaw
I oh yeah I’m I’m ever I’m every title you could imagine I’m Ceo I’m chairman of the board I am legion wait a minute so quite right? Anyway, this is kind of a funny week right? when? yeah Christmas is all fun all the hype to it and then you just kind of.

00:33.11
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah I mean I got plenty to do Jeff I’ll tell you that but am I doing it man I really not really went to a movie yesterday and I saw the new spider man.

00:37.77
Geoff Openshaw
Everything just kind of sags for a week until their close. Yeah.

00:46.80
Geoff Openshaw
What’d you see dude dude like am I right? dude should we should we avoid I don’t know if we should avoid spoiler talk or not I mean it’s only a week or so week and a half old.

00:50.21
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
I mean okay like I maybe the hype it was too hyped for me I heard a lot of Hype. But ah, that’s true, but my spoiler free review was like I kind of walked out feeling like I thought there’d be more. But.

01:01.82
Geoff Openshaw
I Don’t know. Yeah.

01:08.21
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And maybe it was too hyped I sort of knew what was coming. Maybe it was spoiled for me. That’s the problem. But.

01:11.18
Geoff Openshaw
You thought there’d be more in like the most packed to the gills I ierman movie ever. Okay.

01:15.62
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Well I don’t know I just didn’t I can’t articulate why you didn’t strike that chord with me like some were saying and others in the theater were like loving it I mean there was like you know it sounded like there’s praise and clapping and.

01:28.77
Geoff Openshaw
It sounded like there was praise pray script people to stood up with their hands to the sky.

01:32.79
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yes, absolutely I mean people were geeking out and I was like okay all right? Well this it seems a little a little forced and and and there’s some moments where I’m like why are we just having a conversation at this point I don’t know it was fine.

01:47.64
Geoff Openshaw
I thought that I did think that so much of it like I know a lot of this has been successful because while it’s still a Sony produced film because Sony owns the rice of Spiderman Marvel studios doesn’t right? Sony Sony does their thing but it’s been many years now that they’ve sort of they’ve licensed back spidey.

01:58.69
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Okay.

02:06.53
Geoff Openshaw
To the Marvel people which is why he was in like Captain America and then the infinity war movies in his own films are tied to the mcu and all that but I did think this was a fascinating exercise and either marvell Marvel having the idea or Sony having the idea to sort of bring back the previous 2 spider-man attempts.

02:21.20
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right.

02:24.72
Geoff Openshaw
With their villains and stuff and kind of like say it’s all the multiverse like this is the most. It’s good and that.

02:26.41
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, and that’s I guess that’s my criticism of it I feel like they started with the premise of like okay, let’s get these 3 on this same screen and now let’s figure out ah a plot that that would work in and it seemed a little the plot seemed a little forced a little shallow I don’t know just it was fine.

02:36.88
Geoff Openshaw
So oh well.

02:44.50
Geoff Openshaw
I Mean there’s a multiverse he has to save the villains. You know he’s like wait. They’re not going to die. This is this is all in the trailers folks. But basically he’s just like well these people are all going to go die trying to fight me maybe I can redeem them. It’s a story of Redemption redemption is all over the place skirt.

02:45.97
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Go see it. I Yeah I.

02:57.83
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, and if it was about Jesus then I would I embrace that but it was.

03:02.10
Geoff Openshaw
I am curious if there weren’t so many like hoho moments how it would hold up just as like a regular film like like if you have never seen the other Spiderman movies from the previous iterations with like how how meaningful would it be in that sense too I don’t know but I do.

03:11.22
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, right? So I would say as far as like a a fan boy moment goat the new ghostbusters did it for me than the Spiderman oh man it is phenomenal I loved that but I was like in the eighty s I was like.

03:21.61
Geoff Openshaw
I and I wanted to see that but that was just lower on the list I have so I never I heard it I heard it with good things.

03:30.58
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
All in with ghostbusters I Love that that world that universe. So.

03:34.12
Geoff Openshaw
I used to watch ghostbusters a lot as a kid but I’m pretty sure the version we had recorded like was broadcast on on basic cable with the Disney channel or something like that and so when I finally watched it on Dvd like in my twenty s I was like well there’s a little more language in this than I remember and then there’s 1 sequence when Ray is basically. Intimate with a ghost that’s like not in broadcasts of it at all and I was just like whoa where’d this come from this is in the movie I had no idea.

03:56.54
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Ah, yeah, yeah, it’s an interesting experience to watch a movie as an adult that you watched several times as a child. Especially maybe the more you know that are closer to you know, not necessarily for kids movies. But um, and so sometimes as I sit there.

04:11.59
Geoff Openshaw
First yeah.

04:15.18
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And maybe I watch a movie like I took my 6 year old to ghostbusters this this new one and there’s moments where I’m like oh is he going to pick up on that like ah probably not. We’re good. We’re good. So.

04:23.67
Geoff Openshaw
I and that’s the thing like I don’t want to I I still haven’t kind of yeah so so you took your 6 year old I haven’t like gotten to the point yet where I figured out at what point you know as as a as a father as a latter day saint who cares about the media I consume all that stuff.

04:34.15
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right.

04:41.18
Geoff Openshaw
Like at what point do I Willfully expose my kid to minor profanity or stuff like that.

04:43.48
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, right and I’m just an horrible person that’s done that already. But I don’t know it’s ah it it was fun going to theater with my kids and watching a ah childhood you know story with my childhood children. So.

04:58.32
Geoff Openshaw
I’ve tried all weekend to watch inconto with my kids cause it’s like already on Disney plus if you on theaters like a month ago and now it’s on Disney plus like for no extra charge like okay Disney there. You just gave up on that one I guess but na they we.

05:00.11
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Oh yeah.

05:05.54
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
You haven’t seen it yet then I’ve heard great things. Yeah I haven’t either.

05:10.53
Geoff Openshaw
We’ve I’ve heard great things too I’ve not successfully convinced them. They’re very set in their ways. It’s like no I want toy story 4 or 101 dalmatians full stop and that’s the end of the discussion. Yeah.

05:18.12
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Ah, it’s true. It’s amazing how they can watch the same movie like over and over again and as an adult I Just can’t do that right? like it’s.

05:25.24
Geoff Openshaw
So I love how much my kit my ah, my oldest is like I like toy story but not number 3 He’s always very clear, not number 3 I think number 3 is a little intense. You know it’s like a prison break. Yeah number 3 is the best 1 in my opinion but I have a dark soul so was your Christmas all right.

05:33.84
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, yeah, that’s the yeah. Yes, oh absolutely I love that one? Yeah Christmas was great. We got a puppy Jeff so I don’t know if I would recommend this.

05:44.70
Geoff Openshaw
All good. Sorry. No.

05:49.98
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
This type of Christmas but we we did it and I was I’ve been telling my 9 year old daughter for you know we we got into a home in the last year I put up a fence and I’ve been telling my my 9 year old like hey, let’s wait till the spring because I know there’s a lot of outside time that you spend with a puppy but the planet’s aligned and my.

05:55.43
Geoff Openshaw
Right.

06:08.21
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Wife forced the issue and so she won over and we got a puppy and causes me to be out in my backyard at 3 in the morning and I don’t like it but I do for the children. Jeff oh especially this week we’ve had some serious snow. So no no fun

06:17.50
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, and who doesn’t want to be outside in Utah in December at three a m at I’ve heard you guys? Yeah well at least at least you have a puppy.

06:27.45
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
But we got a butppy and every kid needs a puppy I mean I’m really I’m willing to go through the sacrifice because every kid needs a puppy or every kid needs a dog I should say and won’t be a puppy forever I’ve I’ve been told and that’s that so how’s how is your Christmas Jeff.

06:40.68
Geoff Openshaw
I guess it was awesome. My sister and her husband came out from Arizona spent a week with us and we had a grand time just doing stuff. Did some touristy thing when we went to mount burnnon on Christmas eve George Washington’s home and to state nothing says Christmas Eve like

06:53.21
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, right.

06:59.14
Geoff Openshaw
Colonial america um, but it was nice like it’ so I haven’t been there for a while I mean it’s not that far away or anything. It’s like 25 minutes from my house. So I know my sister my sister never has longtime listed. No maybe maybe as a joke. Yeah.

07:05.28
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Now your sister has never co-hosted this this podcast have you asked? Yeah, your mom on here once that was great I love meeting the open shot clan.

07:17.40
Geoff Openshaw
Are you just a oh that was a blast. She told us ah she told us all about we’re actually we just we we were kind of resharing some of our our top 10 downloaded episodes of the year and the one with my mom was one of those. Yeah I think well she spoke she spent a while talking about how the church is in China but because she lived in.

07:28.56
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Really oh I’m not surprised. Yeah, that was interesting I enjoyed that.

07:36.17
Geoff Openshaw
Lived in China for a few years there was also new stuff like normal but I think the main cool feature was that we we got a good inside look into how things function for a church that’s kind of like off the books so to speak in China and how that actually functions and how it functions when you’re next bat there and it’s very different. You know ever since president Nelson announced the temple in Shanghai which by. All indications isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. Um, it’s it’s good to get some insight into how that works so that was cool. Yeah anyway Christmas was great hooray huzza back to life back to reality.

07:56.14
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah. Nice and we’ll get through this week and get back to life that the first couple weeks in January are literally my favorite time of year because that’s right Jeff you know we’re all we all get to go back and just get back in the flow of things get stuff done.

08:14.53
Geoff Openshaw
To the.

08:19.98
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Make the world a better place. You know the the pto resets is that how that works Jeff I don’t have any so I as a that’s right? Oh nice.

08:20.41
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah is no no oh I’m self-employed I do whatever I want so to mine does not reset. No, you can roll over a certain amount going to the next year but now I don’t have a lot of pto accrued right now. So I’m just kind of trying to hang on it if anybody wants to like buy me pto go ahead. I don’t even know if my company allows that some companies do things like that I’m not sure mine does but I’m just going to throw it out there in the hope they do so all right.

08:43.50
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Is that a thing can people gift it to you.

08:51.81
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Nice go make sure you put the go fund me link in the in the show notes Jeff we’ll get you some pto hey and I’m one of them.

08:57.71
Geoff Openshaw
Well hey, no just let’s give that shout to our patrons on patreon everybody you guys are great. Thank you for making for making this year possible you guys help us keep the lights on here for in a world of massive inflation and increasing costs. You help keep twin.

09:11.83
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Glad you brought that up. Jeff.

09:16.22
Geoff Openshaw
I’m I’m sure you are like it wouldn’t be an upset with Kurt if we didn’t find a reason for you to be upset with Joe Biden right so I mean come on. Um, so but yeah, thanks patrons appreciate you guys. Thanks for helping out if you want to support the show http://patreon.com/thisweek in mormons if you want to support kurt. He’s an actual registered nonprofits. So there’s different means to do that. But you can find out at Kurt Francom (Leading Saints).

09:18.40
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Ah, that’s right, That’s right.

09:32.62
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
That’s right big fat donate button there. We’ll take it boom. That’s right.

09:34.66
Geoff Openshaw
Dot org for tax-dedductible people for kurt not for me. Mine is not I don’t have that offering. Okay, so if you really think how much you’re donating to Tom is going to make a dent and your taxable income anyway, I don’t I don’t think it will. So don’t especially not since they’ve raised the child tax credit anyway, even your tithing I don’t know if you’ve noticed this but tithing unless you make a lot of money. You basically don’t pay enough in tithing as a deduction anymore in the United States for it to make a difference for it to exceed what you now get in the double child tax credit. Which is kind of cool but I have seen some other research that’s shown that charitable giving has dropped since the tax loss changed a bit which I mean it’s like sad because we should just give to charity anyway. But it also shows how much being able to reduce one’s tax burden could help encourage charitable giving and that’s not as strong as it. Used to be because that that child did that deduction just does it all and.

10:37.61
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
You’re eligible to run for president now. Jeff so should we jump on the same ticket.

10:38.45
Geoff Openshaw
So this is also true. But so are you I look forward I Look forward to the campaign when you know I I don’t think that’s gonna work unless we do it old school ways where the loser becomes vice president. But that’s how they used to do it. So.

10:48.10
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Ah, who that’s right, that’s right and then the then the vice president just like secretly hates the president for 4 years and that’s true. Yeah.

10:55.39
Geoff Openshaw
Not even secretly so of our history is just is just fascinating. It’s amazing. It took them that long to realize maybe it’s not the best idea. No no, no, it was earlier than that I don’t what I don’t remember is if it came along with a.

11:02.65
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Did that change after what Kennedy and Johnson or what I I guess Kennedy and Johnson They They did hate each other but they still chose each other right right? That’s right.

11:13.78
Geoff Openshaw
It was a different kind of thing. Yeah a marriage of convenience and we do see those in politics. But that’s not what we’re talking about today folks, we’re talking about um the slowest week in latter-day saint news of the year what a way to go out on in 20122012 twenty twenty one folks

11:28.70
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
That’s right, let’s.

11:31.54
Geoff Openshaw
Um, yeah, what happens what happens is there’s less stuff happening during this week and there’s also less stuff being published about what is happening because people are rightfully on vacation and and living their lives so good for them. But we are of course committed to continue bringing you.

11:32.23
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, where we Stern.

11:40.39
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Because it’s that week. Jeff.

11:51.20
Geoff Openshaw
Greatest and in news and we got some stuff about missionaries some ah some boat parades some concerts some studies on gen z all kinds of fun things were happening this week I guess I’m just going to start off with the new musical shut up.

12:05.56
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
The lead story here is let’s do this.

12:09.85
Geoff Openshaw
Shut up. So um, this is by caitlinn bancroft at the Salt Lake tribune Kurt figured out a great hack for the Salt Lake tribune if you don’t want to actually so no no I’m gonna give this to the people. This is why they’re here if you go the salary tribune.

12:18.11
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
You should only release it to the patrons Jeff so.

12:26.67
Geoff Openshaw
And it pops up with ah with the paywall thing right? which it often does if you’re some some articles work on incognito windows if you’re using Chrome but a lot of them. Don’t we discovered that if you open up a new incognito window and quickly hit control a and then control c to copy all the text on the page. It’ll do that before.

12:42.21
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
I don’t think you have to do it quickly. Jeff I did it long when that popup was on ice cream.

12:46.40
Geoff Openshaw
So I was trying to do it with the pop-up on the screen and wouldnt work so I don’t know but basically it’ll copy the content underneath the popup and then you can paste it into something you do a little bit of cleanup but you get that body text people you get it. So I’m not saying like you should do this I’m not encouraging fraud. Umm, just telling you what’s out there. So this is about a fella named David Nolan the headline reads Lds Church denied him financial help so he wrote a musical about its wealth and a man named David Logan I think he lived in what cash valley know ah or is that where he was cash valley is it say I don’t remember. But there’s a satirical show called the good shepherds which is going to debut at the periods egyptian theater in Ogden coming up here now. David Nolan professes that he hasn’t left the faith. He had an experience about this but he’s like a faithful member of the church. But. And as he says the value of the church still outweighs the negative right? No matter what he’s just saying. Let’s have a conversation about the value of human life versus the value of billions in stocks just sitting there so his main issue was um, this got started three years ago when yeah, he’s a cash value resident. He faced a crisis. His business had recently failed. His savings were wiped out after insurance wouldn’t cover a rotting exterior wall in his home and he paid nearly twenty thousand dollars to replace it home. Repairs can be costly but I feel like 20 grand to replace a wall and the outs. what is what I mean and I know wood prices have gone up a lot over the past little while. But. Um I don’t know maybe people think I sound stupid but I look at that I’m like I mean I feel like that could be a less than $10000 job. But maybe he has a very large mcmansion. Maybe it’s a very difficult wall to replace I don’t know either way he had to spend the insurance when to cover it. Um.

14:18.66
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, me, want to get a few quotes on that one just going to say.

14:31.71
Geoff Openshaw
Because what it turns out he was actually standing with his hose in his attic just pouring water into the the cavity of the wall just for days on end until it rotted out and so that’s why they wouldn’t cover it you know because it was his fault and so he went to his bishop seeing if he could get some assistance basically to pay his mortgage. And I love it says given his longtime devotion including a 2 year proselytizing mission and quote significant service positions in his ward. He thought he would find support there now I’m all for people finding support. But I don’t believe there should be some kind of cutoff where you’re saying well I’ve been. Devoted for a very long time I went on a mission I’ve been in prominent positions of leadership I am am more worthy of assistance because of this than somebody else I mean Kurt you’ve been a bishop I don’t know if that exactly tracks with like I don’t think you have a rubric or anything when you’re giving out out assistance and you say well say hold on a second.

15:25.83
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right.

15:27.77
Geoff Openshaw
Have you at least been at the Ward Missionary Mission leader level in terms of leadership. So.

15:30.28
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, that that wasn’t on my rubric I mean I would say every bishop has a rubric but it’s they develop it on their own right? So that’s yeah, but it’s not given to you from any official you know point of contact. So.

15:42.70
Geoff Openshaw
So anyway, the bishop reviewed his finances and offered and authorized him to get $40 worth of food I don’t think he wasn’t even really asking for food. They gave him a food order for forty bucks instead of like helping out in any other way so he scraped by made it happen and then of course ah you had the hundred. hundred billion dollar stockpile the stuff that came out I guess we’ll probably come up on 2 years of that I guess ah you know the rainy day account so he wrote a musical a a fun hippity hoppity satirical musical that pokes fun at the church’s massive largesse.

16:18.20
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
So few things come to mind first off ah I bet there is an entirely different story from the bishop side of things but he hasn’t finished his musical yet. But I’m just so when when does a situation like this jump in their cognitive mind from.

16:19.56
Geoff Openshaw
Kurt how does this make you feel.

16:36.72
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Ah, this is a tough situation too I am going to write a musical about this that seems like a huge jump and one that I I didn’t see that one coming.

16:46.10
Geoff Openshaw
Well, the musical style is a mix of hip hop pop and rock songs I mean this is this is almost like what Alex Boer was trying to do with the blatant Hamilton style knockoff of the life of Joseph Smith which never went anywhere which makes me very sad I want I want that I need that.

17:00.68
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah I hope it it goes somewhere I’d like to see that. But.

17:05.76
Geoff Openshaw
So this what no one’s doing if I were in Utah now 1 thing he does stress he says this is like fun satire. It’s also cleaner like it’s not this ribbled comedy of the book of mormon musical and he’s stressing this saying like yet you could like you can bring your family to this if you have good humor about it and it is appropriate.

17:24.25
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And it features Oh go ahead.

17:25.24
Geoff Openshaw
In that sense you might deem it feel as I say you might dee it inappropriate just based on the objectives perhaps or any sort of Tacit shaming of the church but content wise it’s all right.

17:38.70
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And if.

17:40.10
Geoff Openshaw
It’s all right? It’s no worse than Kurt taking his six year old to a pg 13 movie anyway.

17:42.98
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Feature such songs like let’s buy Florida and look down on me I don’t see how this is at all going to help his case and nor I don’t even know how you would market something like this but bless your heart and your artistic intuition. Maybe this will just be next on Broadway.

18:00.30
Geoff Openshaw
So well I mean it’s playing in Ogden I mean if you’d expect this to be playing at like you know the Rocky Anderson memorial theater in Salt Lake or something right? Yeah, but not no, not there. So ah twinsters if any of you go to this? Please let me know I would love to know more about this I should interview him.

18:02.33
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Who knows.

18:10.88
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
No no I’ll probably sit this one out though. So.

18:18.90
Geoff Openshaw
Ah I won’t put a paywall up.

18:23.10
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Good. Do it? Jeff we’d love to hear it all right? What we got here? Um, let’s ah, let’s maybe ah talk about one that is quite sad that we hear about too often. The missionary in.

18:25.15
Geoff Openshaw
Good. Thank you, thank you all right? Kurt I did my piece. What’s your your top. Whats your top business here.

18:40.00
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

18:42.17
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Ah, from Dr Congo passed away in ah the court ivory. How do you say that mission court devoir. Okay, a full-time missionary for the church um has passed away elder I’m not going to get this right? But I’ll try ah to shama.

18:50.60
Geoff Openshaw
Cote Coatte cote devoir cote devoir

19:01.60
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And niette to shami to shama 24 from laputa democratic republic of Congo passed away and unexpectedly sorry to me and you’re the one that asked me to do this laputa 8

19:09.31
Geoff Openshaw
Sorry I can’t be laughing but but but the the city is called Luputa and the way you by the way you said it sounded like some major Spanish profanity. Sorry sorry.

19:21.30
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Ah, ah for the record Jeff invited me on here. Okay, so but shortly after awaking in the morning he was found unresponsive by his companion and he was taking the hospital where he passed away his cause of death remains unknown at this time but preliminary report suggests is. Result of an un undiagnosed medical condition. So ah.

19:41.40
Geoff Openshaw
Jez out of nowhere to 24 years old I don’t know about you but when I had those missionaries on my mission who were like the older guys. You know the ones who were in their like mid 20 s yeah the seemed ancient but they were always rock stars too because in in my experience.

19:48.10
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Shouldn’t happen. 24 seemed ancient right? yeah.

19:58.86
Geoff Openshaw
All of them were guys who were either commerce to the church or guys who were less active for a stretch unlike got their stuff together and came around and so they they had lived they had like lived like for real and repented for real and like understood things and I I I loved learning from them. But I obviously don’t know if this is.

20:06.95
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right? yeah.

20:16.42
Geoff Openshaw
This elder was in that same boat or not but it’s also sad when you don’t have all the answers right? when this just happens like you just get up and you.

20:19.58
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, yeah, hopefully they figure out more about that. But man tragic.

20:25.85
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, um, well and I feel like I can’t joke I feel very bad for laughing at the whole luputa thing I just I I just heard kurt say it and I was like I’m I’m veering very hard into strong. You sounds luputa Luputa I don’t know.

20:34.10
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
How do you say? Jeff.

20:41.21
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, Luputa all right? Ah yeah, we pay for so all.

20:45.78
Geoff Openshaw
I don’t know just not saying it the way you said it? Um, so some other missionary news out of Latvia. Um there’s some missionaries in Latvia who on December Twenty Fifth posted a video on or their parents did on Facebook or somebody like that. Um. They just made a video for their family for Christmas so in fairness, they made a video for their family for Christmas. Okay, we’ve covered a lot of very interesting Facebook and social media videos made by missionaries especially during the pandemic. Don’t forget the star wars when they reenact it like the closing sequence of. Rogue one inside a stake center and somehow it has to do with scriptures it works this appears just strictly for familial amusement I don’t think there’s like another gospel angle here and it’s not to win over converts. But it’s just them just acting like 20 year old boys ah lipsyncing to all kinds of like Christmas riffs on other classics and I mean I’d be amused if my kid sent this to me I think. I don’t know how I feel about this kurt.

21:59.74
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
About the the video in general or what hey it’s it’s 18 year olds being eighteen you know you bless their hearts and I’m glad they’re passing time maybe during a slow spot I mean I think in latfia I don’t know how? ah.

22:02.47
Geoff Openshaw
Just the whole video in general I mean good for to me good for them I’m sure it’s.

22:18.59
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
You know how awesome the work is there or and you know how much progress you can you can make with a lot of people and so grab a camera and do it and and and I would hope Jeff that the the opening sequence of this podcast episodes features features ah one of these songs so at least for. 10 seconds or so that’s right, it’s a magic editing.

22:36.37
Geoff Openshaw
Oh I mean it already did everyone heard it didn’t you hear it everyone I mean the church and the church is not huge and lavia by any means I mean there’s like 2 branches in Riga the capital. Um, maybe a few more in that. Yeah there’s you know four branches in in the Riga district. It’s not you know it’s not a lot. But. Churches only I think we probably people there I don’t know all the history perhaps before cold war times and this and that but a lot of Eastern Europe the church doesn’t have a lengthy history and.

23:01.37
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
So did did this missionary head banging video just land and land in social media somewhere and and a way it went a little around.

23:12.68
Geoff Openshaw
Um I don’t I wouldn’t say it’s I just kind of I actually do not remember how I happened upon this at all I have no idea how I found this now that you mentioned it I have no idea where I stumbled upon it but because it only has like like it’s shared by some people that’s got like 4 shares.

23:21.00
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
But well now you’re sharing it with the world. Jeff so they thank you.

23:31.25
Geoff Openshaw
1 of which is ours. Um, but good on them good on them I don’t know why elest living hasn’t picked up on this come on Lds living so anyways, good good for you. Missionaries happy Merry Christmas yay

23:39.34
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Nice in other news related to light the world in Christmas time ah light the world themed boat wins best music award in the 2021 Newport Beach Boat parade and so in Newport. Beach they have this great parade on boats right? and I don’t know Jeff you probably have more background on this this tradition but can any any group and as it just religious groups or you churches that participate in this in this parade or how does it work.

24:11.38
Geoff Openshaw
No, no, the the parade can be from all all sorts of individuals in groups treat think of it like a like a parade on the asphalt like in your town right? It could It could be.

24:19.23
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right? Okay, so it’s just a mix of community groups and people and and so they the Newport Beach California Christmas boat for yeah, the best music award the boat was sponsored by members of the church of Jesus Christ latter a saints who volunteered us. Sixty Foot yacht and brought together. Yeah yes I think every stake has you know some stakes have like you know stake property. But.

24:38.00
Geoff Openshaw
So it’s nice of them to have that at the ready I appreciate that about yeah, it’s good. Well when you’re from Newport Beach when you’re from Newport Beach curt of course you can because they built the temple as we know longtime listeners know they built. Temple that is right? It is their temple for a reason in Newport Beach because they built it with their yacht money. You should have been there. There were there were thousands of people with their pottery and fine China um, anecdotally and not historically making the plaster for the temple.

24:58.42
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Like like old school like members came together and poured cement and.

25:11.89
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Love it.

25:13.94
Geoff Openshaw
What I’m refercing there folks is that the actual data on everyone you know, grounding up their fine China for the kurtland temple is not actually supported by historic information anyway, sorry to burst your bubble folks. But if that 1 comes up in your lesson which it did earlier this year. You just kind of say okay.

25:23.21
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Oh boy.

25:30.30
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
So this boat jeffs the scene. The scene depicted ah depicted an angel declaring the glad news of Jesus’s birth as shepherds bowed in odd Joseph invited all to come see while Mary cradled the baby Jesus a banner displayed on the side of the boat stated.

25:32.17
Geoff Openshaw
Not in the manual. Yeah.

25:49.38
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Wise men still seek him the church of Jesus Christ to latter day saints. So boom best music. There’s got to be a clip to the music but there’s not so goes uncontested every year it seems

25:51.65
Geoff Openshaw
And it won an award for. And they won best music last time too. Yeah, what is I mean what is the music because it doesn’t mention much more about it to say song here I was just.

26:07.39
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
The Yacht has a sweet sound system I Guess so.

26:12.41
Geoff Openshaw
Songs that proclaim the birth of Jesus Christ invited listeners to come let us adore him comments like happy birthday Jesus god bless you and there’s Jesus were frequently heard from the crowd I mean that’s cool people said there was a reverent response I’m glad they’re doing this Newport Beach but parades a lot of fun actually because it’s not just parades on their own. It’s floats people also decorate their boats with Christmas lights. It’s a whole fun thing. It’s a good time It’s so good for them all right folks we’re going to the year in review which we’ve kind of hit on church news does year interview see photos and read highlights from 2021.

26:38.95
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Are we going Jeff a look back.

26:50.13
Geoff Openshaw
The lead image here is of president Nelson and getting a vaccine which probably is the story of the year in general and also one of the earlier stories of the year because he did that is far back in the like the third week of January of this year so lot of great highlights. This is literally just church news compiling stuff so you can click on a bunch of other things I mean. They link to their own stories says click on a look back at church news highlights photos. What am I doing here anyways, lots of things you can read all about all the highlights you know, primary general presidency Ronald Rasb band participates in the inauguration of Spencer Cox um new leaders and new missions.

27:27.56
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Silver Medalist Jeff Michaella Skinner yeah another future guest of of this week in mormons right? Oh yeah.

27:29.45
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, her gong speak. Yes, we’ve got the silver medalist what’s her but that was a cool story because she was on almost on her way home from the olympics and they called her back up and then she won which is great I don’t know man when when we interviewed Newel Pica space earlier this year which was earlier this year former olympin you might remember heard.

27:46.32
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yes I think so.

27:47.89
Geoff Openshaw
Skeleton you know back in was it Sochi where she competed I think lovely lady shockingly one of our poorest performing like interview podcasts in terms of downloads I don’t know if something went wrong. But I think people I don’t know I’m skittish on olympians now buddy but Michaela the.

28:02.90
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
All right? Well this is how you how we learn.

28:07.28
Geoff Openshaw
The door is open I would love to to hear from you as would our people anyways. President elsson gets a vaccine. We dedicated the winnipeg Manitoba temple which if you remember was significant because it was the first temple dedicated since the pandemic began supplanting other temples that would have been dedicated. We got that one then we also did ah pocateel right. And finally the rio de janeiro temple is going to come back. We also got to see those great videos about councils that little three part series. They released if you remember any of that about how they counseled together I like the big roundtable they have that also has a pentagon of monitors that they can read. You have 5 screens just any which way you look. Get good information and 1 thing I’m glad to be reminded of remember earlier in January of this year when they did the that cool ah primary activity on you know the the video and it’s like more more of that Joidy Jones is awesome and.

28:46.82
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah.

28:55.56
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yes, yes, it was so well done.

29:03.87
Geoff Openshaw
I’m excited for the new primary presidency but Sister Jones President Jones I think had such an incredible impact on that organization and that was terrific. We’d spent nearly a year struggling to find ways to engage our primary aged kids and this was a great thing. My kids loved it.

29:20.39
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, by the looks of that set. It should be like a weekly program I mean.

29:20.81
Geoff Openshaw
I Wish that I hope they will do more of them I know we’re kind of yeah and I imagine they look at it like well we’re kind of back in church more now and maybe it’s not as necessary but I think something like this would be great if only once a year but maybe twice a year even just to give the kids something exciting to look forward to and see other kids from around the world.

29:29.77
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Oh yeah.

29:39.21
Geoff Openshaw
I Thought that was a terrific terrific effort. We also of course had the conference center was sort of had people in it for conference mostly those who needed to be there and just a little bit more echoy.

29:46.61
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Little more more echoey. This.

29:53.00
Geoff Openshaw
Lots things happen. You can find a long form list of all of this as well over at the church news where it goes by month really just just getting into pretty much every detail of everything that has happened you remember like elder Holland spoke from st george Utah president oakes spoke in that meeting in Charlottesville a lot of cool things happen this year

30:00.45
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, yeah.

30:12.67
Geoff Openshaw
Any other standouts to you this year Curtis we’re winding up 2021 anything happened to you.

30:14.41
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, you know I noticed when I was perusing through the the Weekly Church News where they featured some of these stories. They had a whole section about all the handbook updates which was a big part of of this year lots of dynamic updates to the handbook that I think ah. Sets us on ah on a good path and I think I don’t know if we’ll see obviously to that to that extent. But you know settle up updates here and there that we’ll see on our app and it’s nice that it’s just all on the app and that you know we don’t have to wait for a reprint of the of the actual handbook or whatever and everybody can see it and so. I think that was ah pretty notable that another I think marker in president Nelson’s you know role as president of the church. So.

30:58.94
Geoff Openshaw
Oh one that I I recall as well. A little bit better and and not as good, but the whole announcement earlier in the year that they were going to drastically renovate not just the Salt Lake temple but the mantai temple and remove all the historic murals and redo the floor plan. There was a lot of outcry about that.

31:09.69
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, yeah.

31:18.12
Geoff Openshaw
And at first they said what I think we’re going to try to preserve the murals and put them in the church history library or something like that and take them out and then eventually they just did a one in and said okay, we’re just gonna keep the manaitemp layout as it is and just make it so there’s rooms with there’s there’s still no live endowment but we’re gonna do that and then we’ll just build a second temple up the road and ephram.

31:20.91
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
But here.

31:30.29
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, yeah.

31:36.45
Geoff Openshaw
To handle the the demand which I thought was great I I’ve said this before I sit among the few who are frustrated the church. Never even said something like well. The saints were really concerned about this more than we even expected. So we took it to the lord and. It’s just it’s always like there that we’re so afraid to even open the door that any type of agitation could could result in the church taking action like nope this is just this was a plan all along folks this by the way I’m glad it. It was that was an interesting saga in the spring to kind of see this develop week after week. And I’m convinced. This would not. There would be no temple in Ephraim I mean the I’m not as you know the lord but but but like I have to think the.

32:16.81
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And there’s our title of the episode folks there you go.

32:24.20
Geoff Openshaw
From Temple would not be a thing if back when they announced the initial changes if it was met with kind of a collective like all right? You know if there had not been such mobilization of people who were yeah I would yeah it was a rant. It was a press release like that then people like were really organized about.

32:29.15
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, because didn’t that announcement come in a very like just a random Friday or something. Yeah.

32:40.74
Geoff Openshaw
Their concerns about it and I think that at least caught the ear of Salt Lakek if they hadn’t I’d they’d probably just be going forward. There would be no new temple and ephram that would be announced that was also yeah I was just announced in a press release one of the few non-conference temple announcements and recent history interesting to see how these things develop you know.

32:54.38
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, yep.

32:57.60
Geoff Openshaw
So in the first dese industries outside the western us located in Houston was dedicated so anyways, a great year great times happening. Oh boo ya I love the chick I do more than I should.

33:04.57
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
We’re about caught up to chick-fil-a aren’t we with those locations. Boo yeah, all right look where we going here? Um, ah, let’s see the the tap cats. Tabernac required temple square records 2022 Christmas concerts. So the tabernacle choir the choir joined by the orchestra at temple square this part of Christmas for a lot of people so having this is part of Christmas for a lot of people so having the choir and orchestra performing in this Pbs. In the Pbs special is moving us back to normal said choir president Michael o levitt so it seems like they’re recording these things just so they probably have some obligations with Pbs. Ah, you know Pbs expects their their yearly. Ah Christmas. Ah concert and so they got to be ready for it even though there wasn’t a a traditional open to the public Christmas concert right.

33:57.95
Geoff Openshaw
I yeah I’m trying to think about the history of it here I mean we don’t I know they’ve showed these on Pbs and I’ve seen it years past after they do their usual open to the public Christmas concert that’s usually available on Dvd or broadcast later on. But after the fact I’m trying to remember if they.

34:11.15
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, yeah.

34:16.61
Geoff Openshaw
Have a they said this is back to normal but I don’t remember them traditionally recording the next year’s Christmas concert this far in advance for a broadcaster but i’m.

34:23.17
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, so I think typically they’ll record like so if it was a normal year they would record this 2021 s Christmas concert and then it would show in 2022 on Pbs but this is where they’re actually recording next week’s which are next week next year’s concert that’ll.

34:38.76
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

34:42.69
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Possibly be shown on pvs in 2023 so I don’t know.

34:46.23
Geoff Openshaw
I’m weiner is that the case or is this literally like they’re recording what’s going to be broadcast to 2022 which is similar to 2021 I guess they just did they did some 2021 stuff and now they’re just I mean right.

34:54.51
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Because because last year they didn’t have the Christmas concert at all right? So probably what happened is that they recorded this year’s and made it public this year and now they’re recording next year’s to which they’ll make it public next year. Maybe I don’t know.

35:08.27
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, while the kind though this concert that will air in 2022 is being recorded. Audiences may enjoy the show produced for broadcast this year the 2021 concert is virtual a unique to our retrospective television titled 20 years of the tabernac require. So what they’ve recorded is what they’re going to be for.

35:27.10
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right? So it makes me wonder if they’ll have an additional Christmas concert next year that they’ll then record for 2023 right yes

35:27.84
Geoff Openshaw
Playing next year on Pbs.

35:33.70
Geoff Openshaw
1 would hope I mean hopefully they get back in the swing of things and there’s actually a normal Christmas concert with people and clapping and such I don’t know man you got this almakron stuff though I don’t know what’s gonna go on here hey so ah, good old. The church news has 2 charts that show us. Temple reopening progress. Another big story in 2021 was temples reopening after all of them shut down at the beginning of covid that we’ve kind of inched crawled our way back into it and now we’re at the stage when all of them are open in some capacity. Um, so basically this can simply be explained by a. A pie chart but as a quick reminder the different phases of temple stuff so you’ve got um, phase phase four I believe is just totally open like normal I don’t know if anything there’s very few in phase four I think right are there any in phase four anymore. Do they pull back because now there’s also phase two b which I need to I need to read and remind of that. So. But phase 3 at the start of the year we had 2 temples in phase 3 which provided ordinances for living individuals and proxy ordinances for ancestors all in a restricted manner that includes attendance limitations. We had 136 temples in phase 2 which offered all living ordinances. No proxy work. 21 in phase one which only offered living sealings for husbands and wives and 9 temples and districts of under renovation temples that were closed or not assigned a phased status so that both means like Dc that was just closed and some that were just were not coming back online yet. So this went throughout the year and as of through December thirty first now we have 164 temples in phase 3 offering all living and proxy temple ordinances four temples in phase two b which offer all living ordinances and proxy baptisms. That’s the main. That’s why it’s 2 b it’s do baptisms as well and then two temples in phase one. Offering living ceilings for husbands and wives the 6 temples still outside phase 3 status at the end of 2021 barnicia Columbia Sabus Philippines Medford Oregon which is close for maintenance San Jose Costa Rica Seul Korea suva Fiji and phase one. So we’ve had a very busy year getting temples back into you know, operating status and.

37:46.20
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And I think you you still need to set an appointment for those right? or is it that a little more. Yeah.

37:50.53
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, it’s no, it’s not. It’s not a I think I think they’ve scrapped. Maybe they scrap phase four altogether I’m not seeing much about it. Ah that phase four is the idea that would be totally normal operations of free for all show up like it used to be and I think we’re just flat out not doing that for right now. Yeah.

37:56.71
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, yeah.

38:03.96
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, there you have it and where we going next. We got the photos of Elder Gong I mean we got tweets we got desra book in their new series. It has some controversy.

38:19.90
Geoff Openshaw
It all gets much more much headier at this point in this show this all stuff Kurtz avoiding.

38:23.59
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And that’s right, maybe you’ve picked up on on that week to weeks but especially when when I’m co-hosting here. But how about how religious are generation gen z mormons in the us the results are mixed and this is an article on religious news. Calm and by gene and she looks at some data about generation gen z honestly generation z and this is ah Jeff you looked up 97 those born from 97 to 2010? Okay, but we’ve these are like our.

38:55.87
Geoff Openshaw
I think it’s a bit bigger I think what’s that bigger than that ninety seven ninety seven to 2012 is Gen Z.

39:03.10
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Okay, 2012 so these are our our teenagers and young adults generally speaking. Oh really, who chooses these names. The people who choose the names for.

39:08.20
Geoff Openshaw
So yeah, our kids are generation. Alpha Yeah, the people well at the illuminati or all the or the swamp as this I think the swamp does it? Yes yeah, ah yeah, the people the people.

39:22.20
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Viruses and hurricanes yet some committee the people. So what stuck out to you. You were looking through some of these numbers Jeff ah, but latter day saints. That’s the more mormons report the highest. Participation rate in what the study called youth group activities at 43% and the protestants are the next one behind us at 36% so bless you youth leaders for making that happen.

39:46.94
Geoff Openshaw
And to be clear. This is over the course of the year ten thousand young people were surveyed including a total of 470 who self-identified as latter day saints and of that group 134 also received an additional set of questions and views and so I think what Kurt we are going out here. Is you’ve got um. I the first three are from everybody and then right, right? right? right? And then the next three are this yes, the smaller subs sampleple of the one thirty four gets even smaller in terms of what they think for the follow up questions. So. Some of those are interesting because it says they their belief in god is about average compared to others and respondents. Just yeah and then here’s the really the big one that sticks out again. Very small sample but it says Mormons rank highest of all faith groups and saying they personally have been harmed by religion faith or a religious leader There’s a lot to take with that. We don’t know what harmed means you know there’s a lot of things we haven’t defined in that but there are up top 59% above atheists even which is interesting. Um and we don’t exactly yeah, we don’t know exactly what that means though, it could mean a lot of different. And even Janna Reese points this out like I take that with a grain of salt I’m not exactly sure what it could all mean in terms of what harm means and how we define these things and and how small that sample could be but but that said it’s still worth listening to people. It’s like when we had Liz Brown mcdonald on earlier this year she did.

41:01.34
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah.

41:16.25
Geoff Openshaw
Was very qualitative anecdotal research about the role of religious rigidity in kids staying active in the church or not and how that how that functions if they decide to leave the church Also a very small sample size but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth discussing because it’s not insightful. Regardless right? So still thinks we could learn from.

41:32.22
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, got of got to monitor the data see what we can learn from it right? That’s the name of the game. What what else you got Jeff.

41:41.24
Geoff Openshaw
Um, I’ll go one cur doesn’t want to touch with a five Thousand foot pull so desra this is a medium piece called dera book attempts to serve god and bigotry just published today interesting piece by James C Jones james c jones is a prominent influencer. And he writes this whole piece on medium about his experience being approached by deot book de book is doing kind of a thing similar to master class if you’ve seen that they have a platform called seek whereas he says that they have folks provide gospel centered instruction on what appears to be more practical issues things like how to get more of a scripture study. How to be a single member of the church and like you know you. You subscribe to this you click on it and there’s an expert walks you through these things and teaches you these things. It’s kind of a module of sorts and Kurt you’ve kind of dabbled and things like this with with the way you do a lot of your your virtual summits for example so he has a podcast book called beyond the block and desert book approached him to develop an entire module.

42:26.50
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
No.

42:38.52
Geoff Openshaw
About abandoning attitudes and actions of prejudice which is a good thing that we’ve been reckoning with quite a bit as latter day saints for the past more than a year and a half right? which we should be and we’ve been reckoning with it for a long time but we know things have been a bit bit hotter on that front for the past little while. But earlier this month basically he received an email saying that they were’ going to be published in his content for at least six months he publishes all the emails so you can see them. Um, but basically the reason they’re working to do it is because of a Facebook post he made in August if you remember August was when Elder Holland spoke at byyu and gave the remarks that many people took. Fence do the whole you know muskets protecting the church and and I will so I will say this this is that but to be clear. This is not like coming after church leaders but I took issue with the fact that the only group elder hall and singled out as 1 as 1 potentially of detriment to the church was sort of. Lgbt q community like there wasn’t any going out of the way to come after to also mention others who were also a concern and so it made it seem like you were singling out this 1 group and you’re not bothering to talk about the other people who are also a a threat quote unquote to the church so he wrote his piece about it was pretty funny. I mean his exact words were if it loads up I mean his first thing he said was to condemn the expression of someone’s immutable identity in the name of Christ as satanic. So I mean that’s ah, that’s a strong way to lead out. Yeah, you know and the last words he said is we can believe is that we can believe he’ll get us to talk about Christ Christ will get us past.

43:54.69
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
So little strong now. Well.

44:04.96
Geoff Openshaw
Some homophobic overwhelmingly white ecclesiastical leaders born in the Jim Crow era desert news took issue with this. Um as you might understand the back and forth. They have is interesting because I can understand james’ perspective on a lot of this and he’s being like very academic and picking apart.

44:10.62
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Ah, yeah, right? yeah.

44:24.96
Geoff Openshaw
How he’s doing this because he says and I agree with this part of it. He says dere news was all about the tone like they’re just saying we can’t like do business with someone who has this sort of tone that’s and you get it. You’re working in lots of different businesses. That’s just too hot. It’s too hot and you can’t touch it anymore and he’s arguing back saying well look.

44:38.81
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yep.

44:43.60
Geoff Openshaw
You’re trying to ignore the tone you’re sorry I mean you’re focusing on the tone but you’re ignoring the content of what I am saying are you really saying like what I’m trying to do does not represent desret books values because I think it does you’re taking issue with the tone of a couple of remarks. You can you can see justifications for arguments on all sides in a situation like this absolutely I don’t think there’s any way to say one person who’s absolutely right? 1 person isn’t but the 1 thing I will say so I don’t even necessarily agree with this tone and I understand desra book’s reasoning for being concerned about that. But but. I do like that he says he says quote putting people’s comforts because Butdesra Bos kind of but kind of said like you know we don’t want to like alienate our base we don’t want to make our our customers uncomfortable but he’s like but putting people’s comforts are really anything over people’s humanity. Is idolatry and not the church nor dera book will ever succeed in fulfilling their mission until they destroy the golden calf of hetero normative white supremacy. Those are some some big words there. Yeah, you know he still says he see. He’s an active member of the church. He sustains the brethren. But.

45:42.67
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
2 yeah, but.

45:50.49
Geoff Openshaw
I think I get part of his point there where he’s saying like look you can’t serve both desra book like you you can’t be so concerned about protecting the brethren from anything that you don’t engage on bigger issues that are also more important at the same time if you come out publicly and use language that’s too caustic even if it’s true. Even if. Absolutely, you could pick it apart and say look the language is just descriptive. You’re not actually insulting anyone but this it’s about optics right? Any brand has to be conscious of of with whom they ally themselves I totally understand that you know I mean that’s why Kurt is always very careful if he even comes on this show. Because he doesn’t know what it’s going to do to his base. Um I don’t know I don’t you have Jeff a chance to read this or give it any thought. But.

46:28.86
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Oh man truer words were never spoken. Yeah no I’ve read some of it for sure and I guess it’s just one of those things like at the end of the day like this with a lot of topics related to the church is it’s just messy and. I’m not surprised that de book did this is it is it shocking is it offensive? No I mean like you said this is just that there’s a brand here. There’s optics that have to be taken into consideration and I and this is really difficult to do as you’re sort of vetting people to. Stand on your platform stage and and share their perspective I mean but we both do it right? There’s there’s individuals that will never make it onto Kurt Francom (Leading Saints). There’s spry individuals that will make never make it on this week Mormons and that’s just the way it is because.

47:18.91
Geoff Openshaw
We welcome. All John Dolan is welcome to come on anytime and all I will do is make fun of how full of himself he is but yes.

47:24.96
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
You know? and so there was probably some additional steps where maybe desert book is learning from this the some additional steps they could have taken to make sure that who they’re inviting onto that stage is someone that that they can trust and know that you know that’ll play ball.

47:42.70
Geoff Openshaw
So I do think what’s interesting though is they specifically invited him because of what he’s done and he made it he as he says he’s as he negotiated. He’s like I’m only gonna do this if you let me do it my way and and by this I don’t mean what he says about Overhaulland but produce this module the way he does it in his tone.

47:43.39
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
You know so.

47:53.29
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Okay.

47:58.10
Geoff Openshaw
Not get washed out by fitting into like the Desret News and whatever he sees the sanitized deret news version of things and they were like that’s totally cool. So good on desret news for being comfy with that I do have to wonder if de news could have just ignored this right? like this happened all the way back in August this he has a following sure he does.

48:13.66
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Okay.

48:16.89
Geoff Openshaw
But I also wonder the whole point of this was to get voices that others might not always hear to them and if we silence those voices even if they do say things that in a way perhaps that they shouldn’t which is kind of church one on 1 you find a lot of people have gotten hot water with the church. It’s not about the message. It’s about the deliverance of the message right? That’s very much. Ah, what’s happened a lot recent years. Um, but it’s a shame because now people aren’t going to receive that content and we need that content. We need people who have lived these experiences to be the ones that tell us about it. We do not need it to continually come from the same voices in the same tone like we do. We need that.

48:33.83
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right.

48:53.25
Geoff Openshaw
As church members. We absolutely do and it’s a shame that this won’t come through now because of this and sure there might have been a minority that might have said like well this guy really challenged my views I should look him up and then you go wait a second. He said some mean things about elder Holland I can’t take anything I just learned seriously like I don’t know if that would happen either. But you understand it too like he said.

49:09.70
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, and I I wouldn’t necessarily say that that I mean sure there. There’s always some people that won’t hear his message perspective. But this is why I mean speak you know, meet myself who runs a third party organization you know focus on a specific topic.

49:21.91
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

49:26.43
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
I completely understand why the church doesn’t do what I do with Kurt Francom (Leading Saints) for for many reasons but because a third party has put this information out there. It’s still getting to the audience that it that I hope it gets to in a way that doesn’t involve. Desert book or the church or desert news or anything like that and so I think there’s ways around it. But yeah, that’s right, we just we just passed 7000000 so ah so I think it is possible but to me I just don’t I’m not surprised that desert book took this or yeah desert book took this step and I don’t I think he.

49:44.72
Geoff Openshaw
And Kurt 7000000 downloads buddy it is getting to people.

50:03.10
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
He was probably a bit naive thinking that they’re they’re going to let him do it his way like no if you want to do it your way. Go do it your way and and don’t connect to you know the desert book and that’s Fine. A lot of people do that right? So I don’t know it’s It’s messy and I don’t think there’s necessarily ah a villain in any of this even though he’s sort of. I Don’t know that there’s.

50:24.35
Geoff Openshaw
Kurt there is a villain and her name is sherry do as you know I’m just kidding sherry don’t anyway, yeah, interesting story though we’ll link to his main piece on medium but he links to his Facebook posts he links to all of his original emails. Um.

50:26.96
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
No, of course not so. Ah, yeah.

50:40.13
Geoff Openshaw
Or Reid I think like a lot of things. It’s it’s good food for thought for all of us to just like just read through his thoughts and his experience and see what we can learn from it. That’s good.

50:43.62
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah I guess I guess my overall thought here is that I don’t his reaction to this and putting it online like I don’t think it’s helping in general of it’s just firing up the wrong side of of the the disunity. Of this particular topic right? like it gives 1 more gives ah more target to the church and when not where he could have just said hey I get it. Bygonens be bygones will see you later and I’ll go do this on you know can I have the footage. How can I get the footage or you know what? or maybe I’ll go record this on my own. But.

51:15.11
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

51:19.52
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
It’s not helping to be like look at what the church has done to me I don’t know just silly.

51:21.19
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, no I’m I’m I mean I’m mostly with you there just to play Devil’s advocate though if if people don’t do that. How do we ever affect change if people don’t go out of their way to highlight these things then doesn’t everything just get swept under the rug perpetuity.

51:27.78
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Let’s hear it.

51:35.20
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
I think generally speaking this form of protests you could say or pushback is effective in some some context like politics and government. But in the context of a private religious organization. That believes in prophets Sears and revelators I don’t think it’s it’s helping.

51:52.44
Geoff Openshaw
Perspective. Well okay so I listen to 1 of your recent podcasts though. This is you you talked about how um like we might this is this is more at the ward level but like we need to work through conflict you you seem to actually support that notion. This is a little bit different from that. But how do you think this is different. This is a different different this is more like.

52:02.21
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yes, yes.

52:10.87
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right.

52:11.38
Geoff Openshaw
Public mudslinging I guess then like sitting down and working through it but speak to that for a second kirks I thought that was a really interesting segment where you’re like your podcast was essentially about how to work through conflict within a war that was the basic idea that you guys were talking about and because some might say no I don’t want to touch this I don’t want to touch this I want to keep the peace. More or less but you were arguing like no, you kind of got you have to get into it. You don’t want to get into it just for the sake of being like haha it’s time to get real. You know, but but just I thought that was worth It was an interesting area once you talk about that for a second.

52:34.65
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so as far as this type of conflict like I think we’re there’s 2 different levels that you’re trying to get the settled on the level of like the church in general as this. Multi-organization you know and they’re talking about the for-profit part of of the church. The desert new desert book and whatnot like yeah, there’s some conflict there but not in the necessarily the the you know the public square where that needs to get figured out as far as like him and.

52:57.12
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, okay.

53:08.31
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Him going to his bishop saying I’m really struggling with this then the bishop would say let’s talk about it like what are you? What are you feeling? You know what? what’s going on and how do you you know? let’s point out the hurt there but like going to social media to do it like anytime you involve social media It would be just as effective as a war having conflict and so.

53:14.71
Geoff Openshaw
No.

53:27.63
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
5 people go to social media hoping that that’ll fix the conflict the social media that the public nature of it is not going to fix the conflict. It’s got to be.

53:33.90
Geoff Openshaw
And the hardest thing with with the social media is you’re yeah you’re not having a good back and forth that way. You’re having 1 person posting something and then mudsling it in the comments. You don’t get there. It was actually designed for conflict creation people and that so you.

53:38.84
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Exactly it was never designed for conflict resolution right.

53:50.90
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Bingo right? right? And so and he’s only feeding them that monster by going to social media platforms like medium or like Facebook or whatever and trying to say hey look at this. This is a problem.

53:51.46
Geoff Openshaw
So you stay there and stay in it. Yeah, so.

54:05.00
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
I Can’t believe it Well it is a problem sure. But it’s not going to be resolved that way.

54:07.41
Geoff Openshaw
No I won’t I’m ah I’m like 98% with you I would say there could be somebody who could read this though and say wow this is a problem I wonder what like what can I do in my someone could be inspired at their local level to address that and they otherwise would not be if they had not been made aware of it through social media channels. But.

54:21.73
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, yeah, the reality is is to have influence on an organization. You have to maintain access to that organization and this is not maintaining access for him or or others and so there it is yeah.

54:26.41
Geoff Openshaw
Not always, but. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true too.

54:35.50
Geoff Openshaw
That’s a good point. That’s a good thought Kurt I like that? Yeah, okay, well folks like we’re gonna wrap it up this week I’m gonna save Kurt not talking about the tweet that discusses the you don’t want to get it this. We’re doing fine. Oh you actually want to get it so there’ a tweet that talks about basically like okay let me.

54:41.63
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Oh come on. Did you want my short perspective of this tweet.

54:52.17
Geoff Openshaw
Was really gonna skip this I was like cool good show, good show. This is a quote from Dan Mcclellan that says sometimes in the mountain west the latter-day saint social identity must compete for costly signaling directly with the right wing authoritarian social identity when it does. The latter wins out far more frequently than 1 might hope and this is because he was retweeting a quote a tweet that said despite a government order an email from our state president and urging from the first presidency dozens of people showed up to church today without masks I sometimes wonder what it will take for people to listen to leaders when they ask is difficult unlike masks.

55:25.55
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
So you ah is there any huge dormous assumption. He’s making in this that you can point out.

55:26.60
Geoff Openshaw
Anyway, so.

55:30.72
Geoff Openshaw
Just a little bit. You know, just just ah we we’re put we’re painting in some broad strokes here across the board. So.

55:34.75
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right? right? It’s a great I mean this is ah going back to social media Why it is so toxic to our culture. This is a great tweet and it’s going to get a lot of people riled up but he’s making the huge assumption that the only reason why people wouldn’t wear masks is because they have a belief in a right wing Authoritarian. Social identity.

55:53.92
Geoff Openshaw
I know if it’s not the only reason why but I think what I do worry about and I think this goes across all identities is not just the one side I worry that as latter-day saints. We have slowly sort of seeded our church identity and our latter-day saint identity and given way to tribalism and I think that’s for a number of reasons part of it is social media. Um, part of it is cable news part of it honestly I truly think that since we’ve even eased up on like church in general like now it’s 2 hour church now you’re not supposed to have what used to be called firesides. What are bishops youth discussions. You’re supposed to have them in the afternoon now because we don’t want to take away from the family. But I think all these we don’t do road shows right? like all these things we used to do I think we’ve kind of eroded like the culture we have as saints because of all these things as we’ve said we’re quote unquote focusing on the family. But I think that’s left a vacuum and I think.

56:41.58
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, yeah, yep, bip.

56:44.46
Geoff Openshaw
Other things have filled in that bag I don’t like I don’t know what the answer is you don’t tell salt like like bring back all the programming and all the busyness and stuff but I worry about that because I don’t think we’re replacing it Withre. We’re always gonna replace it with something and we’re replacing it with identity politics. Or identity issues more or less and so in that sense I think it’s true. So I think you see in many instances like among latter amongst latter day saints that what we’ve seen a lot of and I guess you can use the mask or covid stuff as an example, but many who are like they don’t care and these are more traditional like I hate to say it this way Kurt. But you know more traditional. Orthodox like members traditionally like right? But then this thing comes out that they don’t like and all of a sudden. No. No, no, you’re leaning on your your other identity for that instead of the church and I’m not trying to say that if you had if we still had 3 hour church and all these obligations that. Like the feelings wouldn’t be there and its covid is especially difficult because it’s like it’s not like anti-vaccine or anything like that just came out because of covidve. It’s been around for a long time. But um, it kind of feasts on that. But I really worry a lot about sort of how identity politics have taken over and I don’t think we’re doing enough to fill in the void. Fill in that vacuum anymore as latter day saints. We’re all doing everything in the name of just ease off. It is home focused church supported and we are less involved now and okay, so now we’re just spending more time on Twitter which is not good I don’t know I don’t.

58:11.47
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Or how you and I would say it’s not so much a right wing Authoritarian Social identity as it is just a human issue right on both sides of the the spectrum this is happening before after during pandemics and. But yeah I think your point is much more valid that like yes, there’s a huge vacuum here and we have to be very conscious of this vacuum. That’s there and how and intentional as far as how we make sure that vacuum gets filled right.

58:38.54
Geoff Openshaw
I Will say the one cavebbat I’ll make here though that does make it a little to to I Hate to say sides but some of the sides a little bit distinct for more liberal ladders answer. There’s kind of always been a little bit of that friction I say a law of the side and everyone everyone picks and chooses stuff right? Like we’re all guilty of that. But I do think we’re looking at this place where it’s not necessarily.

58:43.55
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um.

58:48.80
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, right right? yep.

58:58.20
Geoff Openshaw
Majoritarian per se but we’re instead we’ve seen the more kind of like traditional subset within the church and these are the ones now who are like reckoning with will I listen to the first presidency or not that’s not entirely new of course in our history. But I think I think a lot of that is something new and then then magnified by the social media age.

59:15.57
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yes.

59:17.88
Geoff Openshaw
That makes it really hard to deal with to deal with that sense which might be why people pick on you know the rightwing authoritarian social identity or something like that because that’s sort of the new flavor that’s been manifesting ah during this process like we’ve kind of we’ve expected what we’ve seen from more progressive members of the church. Their actions are particularly new and of course you have progressive members of the church now. Who are all many who are like I’m all in man president president Nelson’s like masking up in vaccine. Yeah man obedience right? and then that’s like good good good good I’m fine but yeah it’s it’s it’s tough stuff and I know you did the whole podcast on kind of like some of these issues with covid and.

59:41.96
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Right? Yeah yeah. Yeah,, that’s at the root of this is that the end day where we pick and choose that What value we are. We’re bringing to the surface and holding as the priority and let’s hear it.

59:59.30
Geoff Openshaw
I Do I do and this is this is constructive criticism I I enjoyed that podcast I think people should listen to it overall. Um the one thing I didn’t agree with though was the premise I liked it as a podcast about how to navigate conflict as a war broadly speaking I think there’s if that’s what it’s framed. As for.

01:00:10.71
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Um, ah oh.

01:00:18.53
Geoff Openshaw
Beautiful nuggets of information a lot of warwhile stuff to think about, but the 1 thing is I worry about us even accepting the premises many of us have by default that disagreements about ah public health issues are inherently political I think they’ve been made political by different parties and we’ve accepted that. And so when we lead into discussions assuming it is political and accepting that premise I worry about that and I think any of us would do that but like I I wish we could all back up and say like a public health crisis is a different thing. It’s because a lot of parties have decided. It’s about politics and identity politics. But now it’s a public health issue. That’s all it needs to.

01:00:42.75
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, that makes sense.

01:00:55.31
Geoff Openshaw
And it’s just it. It pains me because yeah, we’re in all this case now where it’s It’s become political. It’s become science and pseudoscience and all this stuff we you know all we could talk about it at Nauseum right? You know right here on the air I think that was yeah so that’s main thing just just that part of the premise but overall remove that from it.

01:01:01.30
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, that’s fair I appreciate that criticism Jeff I hadn’t thought about it that way and you see.

01:01:14.31
Geoff Openshaw
I mean it’s it’s a good episode I think people should check it out I know it’s kind of a new feature. You’re toying with right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so anyways Kurt I don’t want you to feel shut down I thought it was good I’m being no I’m being clearop folks download that episode good food for thought about how we navigate difficult issues and how we like.

01:01:16.64
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Yeah, we’re we’re playing around with it to say how it goes so that was great.

01:01:33.14
Geoff Openshaw
Get a rise above anyway I didn’t want to talk about this tweet but you insisted on it. You wanted it so badly, you needed your life. Um, so with that everyone we hope you have a great new year. Please go to this week at http://mormons.com

01:01:35.64
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
And I think it was a good discussion.

01:01:49.12
Geoff Openshaw
Um, also go to Lds living where you can see 18 photos of elder gong that’ll make you love him even more which is the greatest series I’ve ever thought of photos of so and so that’ll make you love them even more just love whoever came up with that. Go to this week at http://mormons.com follow us on social media where we try not to get to in the week to too mean and too radical, right. Try to be okay on there Kurtz on there too. You can follow him on various social media platforms go to http://leadingsas.org to get everything you need to know about Lds leadership in 1 place in a place that is not church approved he wants to be clear about that or part of the church apparatus. So.

01:02:21.46
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
That’s right and and I wouldn’t claim. It’s the place to get all things about church leadershipship but we have discussions you know, just like you don’t give all news here. Jeff we don’t give all leadership there. So.

01:02:25.17
Geoff Openshaw
I was good. No, it’s it was good times. Okay Kurt you’ve anything else you want to plug before we go buddy.

01:02:31.94
Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
No man just ah I I was enjoy coming on here and acting like I have a strong perspective on things and keep up the good work Jeff we’ll see in 2022 I’ll go on.

01:02:42.33
Geoff Openshaw
No, you keep up the good work Kurt you do more than I do all right folks. Thanks for listening to twin. We’ll ah talk to you next week until then take care be safe out there over the new year and like you know, don’t get aomicron or whatever. That’s my hope for all of us for Kurt I’m Jeff bye bye.

 

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