EP 564 – Can LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints Date?

TWiM_EP564_LGBTQ_Latter_day_Saints_Dating
Where does one cross "the line" as a queer Latter-day Saint? Also, how do you know if you have inappropriate romantic feelings for your bishop?

Welcome to another week of news! Before we get started, we want to stress that we are not experts on all things LGBTQ+ as it pertains to the Church and living the life of a Latter-day Saint. We are sensitive to the difficult situations many of our brothers and sisters are in as they reconcile various components of themselves and paddle upstream in difficult cultural waters. Let’s do our best to make the journey easier.

Patricia Doxey is back after a little hiatus, and we’re thrilled to bring her erudition to the TWiM Cave™ as we break down the latest in salient Latter-day Saint news. So let’s get to it. Story links below.

Latter-day Saint News

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Transcript

00:00.00
Geoff Openshaw
Hi everybody what’s going on I’m holding the mic like a like a singer like a person who is passionate about singing I’m on a stage and as this week in mormons I am Jeff Openenshaw it’s nice to be here with all of you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to our we production this week you can find all of our podcasts at this week in http://mormons.com but also of course wherever you get podcasts and I want to get a special plug Spotify by the way if you’re a Spotify listener when there there is a growing number of you I look at the data Spotify now supports reviews of podcasts. So if you listen to this show on Spotify. Leave a review in Spotify for us. It’s legit. This isn’t like Itunes where it doesn’t matter as much but I still encourage you to do it on Apple Podcasts it matters a bit more for Spotify and if we were going to dominate our very niche space. It takes you people takes an army. So please do that subscribe. And a big shout out to our patrons on http://patreonpatreon.com/thisweek and mormons pitch in three bucks a month and help us pay for our various fees that make this a largely ad-free service just for you. Um, done plugging and I’m happy to welcome back to the pod I guess I don’t realize it’s been like six months or something. But anyway Patricia Doxy what’s going on old friend. How are you.

01:10.23
Patricia
Hello. It’s it’s good to be finally forgiven for whatever I said on the last one and welcome back into the twin family and I I am a busy person and you know Jeff maybe you’ll have to give Spotify a chance as you may know for their.

01:17.34
Geoff Openshaw
You just you’re just a busy part. You’re a busy person. You’ve got life. You know.

01:29.71
Patricia
Produced content. They’re only putting it on Spotify so there are a couple podcasts that went to only Spotify. Um, how to save a planet was one of my favorites and I’ve been stubbornly holding out on on listening to more episodes. But maybe I’ll go check out twin and how to save a planet in.

01:32.80
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, well Joe Rogan I mean come on. Yeah.

01:46.82
Geoff Openshaw
There you I understand like the business the business angle by getting exclusive podcasts when podcasts are big I totally get it but it makes me a little sad because podcasting for so long has been this realm of like all of us who make them just figure out where we’re hosting them and how we’re publishing them and then you’re just sending your feed all over that. It’s all about just syndicating it everywhere. You can.

01:49.24
Patricia
On Spotify oh sure.

02:01.70
Patricia
Right? right.

02:05.28
Geoff Openshaw
Syndication is basically not the game anymore now it’s like a lot of the streaming models. No, it’s about owning your content and having it exclusively on 1 platform to encourage people. Yeah, all those sorts of things so I get it a little sad.

02:10.50
Patricia
And ah the the advertising so you know when you want when you want your advertisers to pay you the big bucks you can do some exclusive content.

02:22.22
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah I forgot this I should know this is a podcast or is Apple doing their own exclusive podcast yet are they doing their any own generated content because they could do a thing because other than that the players are pretty small like tune in does some podcast support you know, Spotify’s they’re they’re they’re making a big play.

02:29.20
Patricia
Um I don’t know I don’t know right. Yeah, Well they yeah they bought a couple companies and and some of those production companies and bringing it in-house. But anyway maybe I’ll maybe I’ll have to give them a chance.

02:41.38
Geoff Openshaw
So yeah.

02:46.69
Geoff Openshaw
Um, well I mean when you’re making a lot of money from subscribers and paying artists a pittance compared to what they used to make in the world of Cd people actually buying Cds and stuff I mean you know this that you got money to burn right? It’s easy. Sorry Taylor Swift well fine

02:54.93
Patricia
Right.

03:02.79
Patricia
I’m telling.

03:06.56
Geoff Openshaw
Anyway, it’s great to be here with all of you this week. We’ve got an exciting week of latter-day saint news I’ll give you a little little little primer here. What’s going to happen. We’ve got Harry Reid passed away which we talked about last week but we had his memorial service and of course conservative latterday saints are outraged about that we would dare send a representative there and say nice things about a democrat. Um. Should Zoom Church continue should what should you tell? Apparently I love this one. We’ll get to but mom and dad need to take a shower. Thank you sisters and Zion. We’re gonna get to that that one’s fun. Ken Jennings gets to ask a mormon question on Jeopardy President Ballard wants us to smile our way through covid some temple open house information.

03:33.32
Patricia
That’s right.

03:43.98
Geoff Openshaw
And not to be too much of a tease. But what do you do? if you develop romantic feelings for your bishop. These are the things we’re gonna get.

03:49.63
Patricia
A question I’ve wrestled with so many times. Jeff.

03:54.47
Geoff Openshaw
Especially what? oh no I sorry the former representative from Oklahoma was never your bishop I was about to say no no anyway. So that’s we’ve got all that and more but first just just check in patricia life good utah fine how’s how’s the things.

04:00.14
Patricia
No.

04:12.37
Patricia
Utah like Virginia actually got a lot of snow so there was a good good week and a half there where we got lots of lots of snow and um, this is the first time I’ve owned a home in the snow. So I did quite a lot of shoveling. It was pretty fun. Actually so.

04:14.20
Geoff Openshaw
Okay, yeah.

04:30.90
Patricia
Enjoyed it felt like a good little homeowner shoveling my shared driveway um brought my daughter out she this was her first real experience in snow. So she’s enjoying it. Our legislative session is about to start up so we’ll see all sorts of fun, fun things happening there.

04:37.16
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah I was gonna ask that’s fun. What a party. What will it’s like and it’s always like what will they think of next in in the Utah legislature what fun ideas will they have this year that’s cool yeah we had a lot of snow last week it was a snow week for school I couldn’t believe it like.

04:48.40
Patricia
Um, what? what will they think of next yeah, right.

05:01.19
Geoff Openshaw
Never went to school once there was supposed to be the first week back from Christmas break. So Christmas break became three weeks long instead of 2 and I’m just glad they can go to school again.

05:11.88
Patricia
I’m sure Danielle is as well.

05:14.35
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, it was a I mean they they just got to play I mean they just sluted like every day and stuff but it was ah I didn’t do any of it I work in a basement without windows but they get to I don’t even know if it’s daylight right now I have no idea there are no windows here I never know well folks, let’s dive in.

05:19.45
Patricia
Sure.

05:34.28
Geoff Openshaw
Latter-day Saint News and there are like I said some interesting things to it’s an interesting week. Interesting pieces have come out both straight up news and some stuff that kind of just comes from the blogosphere. Um, a lot of mixes I’m just gonna lead off though with the one that makes me the happiest because it’s gonna get my juices flowing here open house reservations.

05:42.23
Patricia
Who.

05:53.52
Geoff Openshaw
Now available for the washington d c temple open house. We have been. It’s been. It’s been a long winter here for us in the dc region. Our temple’s been closed since March Twenty Two Thousand like eighteen it’s been crazy long um, crazy crazy long. How.

06:05.44
Patricia
Um, it’s been a while? yeah.

06:13.46
Geoff Openshaw
Since we’ve been able to go the temple longn that though, right? I mean I said yeah yeah, that sounds about right? So anyway, it’s coming back online as we’ve discussed here on the pod. But now you can get your tickets to the open house if you’re gonna be in the Dc area. You go to the little website http://dctemp.org what’s cool is in my experience most you can you can walk up to temple open houses. Usually maybe that’s how you have to wait.

06:31.32
Patricia
Um.

06:33.12
Geoff Openshaw
Until like the fitting need you can fit for a group something like that. But I’ve also been when you could make in Philadelphia you could make reservations for a specific time that you were going to go and and go through in DC they’re not doing that. There’s no tickets for the open house experience itself. You only have to have reservations to get parking or to be.

06:52.12
Patricia
Um, interesting.

06:52.48
Geoff Openshaw
Picked up on the shuttle from the metro station that’s sort of nearby. So that’s the only thing you need for the online reservations they are going quickly. They’re they’re being taken fast. So if you’re interested in that folks get in there. Come come visit us in Dc tell me if you’re in town I will go with you gladly. We will all be friends. We will go to the temple. It’ll be wonderful I’m excited to see what changes they’ve made one of the ones they’ve teased. We’ve heard about patricia. Do you remember how you know the baptist history of course is on the lowest level there right um.

07:21.16
Patricia
Right? right.

07:25.21
Geoff Openshaw
But usually when the youth would go there. They would just walk down that ramp because there’s the overpass you know and they’d go outside apparently and there are stairs that go from the um, recommend now let’s go down to the I’m sorry no I forgot those go down to the distribution center. So anyway, they have apparently built a new staircase like past the the.

07:26.54
Patricia
Sure yeah.

07:45.20
Geoff Openshaw
Cause the via duct. Whatever we want to call it that goes into the temple itself and so you can actually go the front desk then go through that nice hallway to the main foyer that has all the paintings and now they built a new staircase that then goes into the baptistry This probably makes sense because next to the baptistry was the cafeteria which is just not even used So I’m.

07:50.59
Patricia
Are her.

08:04.43
Geoff Openshaw
Um, taking a shot in the dark that they tore out a lot most if not all of the cafeteria now have some new means of getting down to the basement I don’t know what else itll be I think most of itll probably be the same but ah, it’s gonna be great. So.

08:12.85
Patricia
Yeah I’d be curious to see um as maybe your listeners may know I was out in the Dc area for a while and I’ve wondered what changes what changes they’ll make. But yeah I remember at 1 point in the mesa temple they sweet. We used to go in a side door. And then they switched it so they’d bring us in through the front front door and you’d go by the desk and they’d kind of escort you and um, you know see a little bit of that temple experience.

08:33.00
Geoff Openshaw
There.

08:39.90
Geoff Openshaw
And it’s a mix like when I grew up going to the La temple. Um, it has there was its own side entrance for the baptistry area and that’s sort where we’d met. We never went through the front and that temple’s humongous. So I guess that’s fine. But yeah, good for them. It makes exciting.

08:52.15
Patricia
Yeah I have I Hope they kept all that wood paneling. Yeah you know I would have been it would it would have been fun to be on the team to refinish the paneling but I hope they didn’t take away all of the kind of um.

08:56.73
Geoff Openshaw
1 can only pray.

09:08.62
Geoff Openshaw
The 70 s charm of.

09:11.16
Patricia
Kitschy Yeah Kitchy charm. Um, but maybe just updated it a little bit.

09:15.90
Geoff Openshaw
So yeah, probably but I’ve heard there’s some new I don’t know I’m excited. It’s been so long I don’t know how it’ll be different at this stage. You know it’s been a very very long time since I have set foot in that building.

09:22.60
Patricia
Yeah, now that I don’t live downtown I haven’t seen the progress on the Salt Lake temple for a while we used to you know, do walks there daily should go back and check it out.

09:29.83
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, well we know the project as we talked about about a month ago has now been extended quite a bit. It’s supposed to be a 4 year project now it’s going to be at least like five and a half and be 6 years int until it’s all done. So yeah, crazy time. So come to Dc everyone come be with me.

09:39.30
Patricia
Unsurprisingly, they’re they’re doing a ton. Yeah yeah, okay, we’ll book some tickets.

09:49.12
Geoff Openshaw
Come worship with me. Okay, sounds good.

09:53.10
Patricia
So Jeff I don’t know what what article stuck out to you but there was the economist piece on you know, can mormonism become a global religion and ah to be honest I wasn’t that impressed with the article it sounds like he maybe just like Wikipedia morgan mormonism but I did I did think some of the points he brought up. So if you haven’t read it. He he brings up 3 questions which perhaps could hold the church pack from becoming global. The first was the centralized nature of the church and the church’s wealth leadership and theological teachings emanating from salt lake city second he said is that a congregation. The congregation of a mormon joins based on where they live and he thought that that was one limitation is that it didn’t give people choice and then the third one the second and third one stuck out to me is a little like oh interesting that these are the.

10:39.83
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

10:50.37
Patricia
2 that you’re pulling out but the third one was um, mormons might reform their missionary practices in order to retain members more which I thought was a little odd because he’s saying hey you know people don’t really resonate with sending. Ah. Predominantly white members from America to other countries. But I think the church is trying to make it more local and sometimes it’s just a lack of supply. But I think the church has really been doing that. Um and where possible using more local missionaries. Um. The the point about ah mormons not having the option of joining I I mean I can resonate There are some wordsds that I’ve really enjoyed and resonated with leadership and other wards where it’s honestly been a struggle I’ve think about my 2 wards that I’ve been in here and. In Salt Lake and 1 was one was a big struggle to be honest, um, just viewpoints very different for me a very different demographic and I think one of the values of having it being geographic based is you really do get to know the community and you have to learn to.

11:47.54
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

12:04.36
Patricia
Interact with people that you wouldn’t normally interact with and it has some pros there but I think some cons are not really finding a community that you would choose and resonate with so those points but I don’t know what what did you What did you? I’d be curious about what you thought about the first point which is. Which I do think is a challenge for a global church is that the theology and the leadership and the wealth pretty much resides in in Salt Lake City still

12:31.30
Geoff Openshaw
So I think I’m going to talk to that for a second I do want to respond to your talking about you know congregations being where they are I agree with you and on all these fronts Sometimes it’s hard. You’re you’re stuck where it is but it it forces you to be exposed to people and work with people you probably wouldn’t if you were just choosing your surroundings.

12:37.55
Patricia
Um.

12:49.79
Geoff Openshaw
At the same time. How fun would it be if we opened up wards and remember ward by the way historians comes from the idea of like a ward of a city. It was a geographic area like even in Dc dc has wards you know New Orleans as like the lower ninth ward was famous and that’s where it comes from it was from way back when they when they.

13:02.80
Patricia
Mm.

13:06.78
Geoff Openshaw
Planned out these cities and the pioneers in Missouri and stuff and kurtland and we had certain wards and that that was your congregation. Um, but if we opened it up honestly wouldn’t a little healthy competition potentially benefit wards like it might be terrible because everyone would flock to like the 1 ward that was doing. Better or or had it stuffed together. But it might kind of like force the hand of of local leadership to think man. What do we do then to get people to be here in our congregation. What do we do them to make them feel at home and want to be a part of our ward not to disparage the other words around you. But. And might be a way to kind of think strategically in that sense what you can do to be or the other downside of it though I think during the pandemic is you literally have like unmasked and massed wards like completely like segregating from one another which should be a a little bit. There are different communities. So anyway.

13:49.99
Patricia
Sure which I think I think we have that already Jeff but you’re right? Yeah yeah, I do think that wards could compete a little bit more I think in conversations about why people go quote unquote unactive the blame. Usually put on the person not being faithful enough or being offended. Um, but I think some words could say hey is the environment. We are creating the kind of environment that people want to seek out and.

14:11.24
Geoff Openshaw
Of course can never be anything else. You just like.

14:24.96
Patricia
You know it’s easy for people to say oh that there are so many blessings in service and you know interacting with people. You don’t normally interact with but the story changes a little bit when you find yourself in the minority and you’re always feeling like either ideologically or racially.

14:31.96
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

14:43.85
Patricia
Or maybe socioeconomically and feeling like you’re always in the minority can be exhausting so you know it could be good for wards to really think about what are what’s the kind of experience that we want to create for people that is meaningful for them.

14:57.20
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, and so that kind of leads into the first point that you asked about I mean I think that’s an issue they interview Janna Reese of course they interview a number of like kind of prominent demographers within the church Matt Martinick for example was Patrick what’s his face I think gets a a tip.

15:07.85
Patricia
Who.

15:15.38
Geoff Openshaw
Hat and and Janna Reese 1 thing they mentioned is the fact that like we’re trying to be more open about music after some handbook updates. You know what could we allow? That’s culturally significant that might be a bit different I think these are good examples of everything not being so salt lakecentric but it is true that stuff. Wealth like it says the wealth leadership and theological teachings still emanate from Salt Lake City I think we have been changing a bit more though in the past ten years it’s still very much the case that everything emanates from Salt Lake City but I feel like we’ve tried to do more to be thoughtful about the fact that we. Are a global church. This article is asking whether we can thrive as a global religion. It’s not It’s not asking if we are a global religion we are but whether we can thrive in that context. Um, and it makes me worry about like this the missionary force I know I might be getting this wrong. But I think it was president mckay.

15:53.57
Patricia
Are.

16:08.37
Geoff Openshaw
Big time paraphrasing here twinsters but let me know what I’m if I’m spot on but I believe they said something along the lines of ideally in the church we’re at the point where membership is strong enough around the world that people just serve their missions in their own countries and while I think that’s the gist of it I would love the source I looked it up I had this thought looking into this. I tried to find it but I couldn’t find it but I know I read that somewhere. Um, that’s an interesting idea like I’d be sad if I was thinking about it like not having served a mission in Spain like I’m really glad I served a mission in Spain. It was very formative experience for me at the same time.

16:36.43
Patricia
Raves.

16:41.30
Geoff Openshaw
Have to think if Spain were full of spaniards doing all the missioning they might have a little bit more luck with the locals and that could be and like you mentioned like you know you go to Africa and like what are the optics if we’re sending a bunch of american kids over there. The church is doing well in Africa but it’s even stronger this goes back to the Alma Andamul like thing right? The whole reason.

16:44.10
Patricia
Um, yeah.

17:00.78
Geoff Openshaw
But Alma was struggling to teach the people. But when Amulek spoke up and they looked at Amulek and they were like oh he’s one of us he’s He’s our neighbor. He’s from our town. He’s not some outsider coming in here to tell us what we’re doing wrong. He’s on the same level but he’s part of our community.

17:12.31
Patricia
Um.

17:17.52
Geoff Openshaw
Obviously that same lesson could be applied to missionary work. We’re just not there yet in terms of numbers. You know we just don’t have that as many we have way more North American Missionaries to choose from than we do anywhere else.

17:24.11
Patricia
Yeah, and you know one 1 thing that where I thought he was going to go and and not is and I ah, just wait for a second let me get to my point here. But um I thought he was going to go not focus so much on numbers and baptisms. But on retention. Um, and not just retention as well. But serving for the sake of service instead of service to like get people to you know do lessons because you know thriving can not only just be thriving in terms of growth but thriving in terms of reputation in terms of community engagement.

17:50.80
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, no.

18:02.87
Patricia
Um, so I personally would love to see an ah a truly more service oriented mission where it’s focusing less on proselytizing and more on developing those times of community engagements. That’s that’s a mission I would really love my kids to do. Is one that is more service based and you know organizing and leading service and taking time out of their lives to do that for you know, 18 to two years eighteen months two years I think would be a great experience.

18:35.11
Geoff Openshaw
And we do have an element of that you know they have changed some of what was it years ago they changed the way they issue mission calls Now they you know whether it’s a service mission different types of missions. You apply to be a missionary full stop and what you wind up doing I mean you might still mean very.

18:41.98
Patricia
Um.

18:53.80
Geoff Openshaw
Likely that you could go on a proselytizing mission. But that’s not a given anymore and I love that they’ve unified that experience and it’s not because it always It always felt a little less than like oh well, you’re not going to go on a proselytizing mission. We’ll apply for you to be a service missionary. No now it’s like these are all missions that serve in different different capacities different focuses. That’s fine I Think that’s great.

19:05.67
Patricia
Right? And it’s it’s kind of part of mission culture or you know church culture to be excited about the the feeling of it being unknown and opening your mission call but it would be great if there were a little bit more choice. In the matter and you know maybe somebody is more cut out to do a service um to focus on Humanitarian Aid. Um, and would be less excited about proselytizing so maybe introducing some more choice in there. But I.

19:35.54
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, and like you could? yeah yeah and you can get excited. You know like it changes when you’re out there a bit too. Of course I mean that’s that’s normal. Um it.

19:40.86
Patricia
Sure Yeah, but I do think the point like part of the church’s strengths. But then also its drawbacks is its theological Centralization. You know correlation. There is a strength to that. But there’s. Definitely a drawback and I do feel like they’ve been more intentional about seeking diverse experiences but it’s really hard to see culture. You know it’s really hard to see when it’s your own preferences over what’s right? What’s actually a moral decision. Um, so I do think that’s limiting um and you know until you get um, really diverse Leadership. You aren’t going to see the real embrace of ah or in my opinion of a thriving global religion. Um, and in my opinion that would also include um a diversity in gender representation. But that’s another conversation.

20:43.10
Geoff Openshaw
All right? Kate Kelly take it easy. There. Do you think like do okay, do you think as a sidebar. Do you think we’re doing better with gender representation. Do you feel like we’ve moved the needle and in positive ways. Even if there’s. Even if there is work yet to be done.

21:01.40
Patricia
You know and Jeff this is this is actually going going back to my last time on the pod and that was one of the articles we talked about which is the report that was released on an update of like where have we gotten better. Um, and where at least in the author’s perspective. We haven’t progressed. Um.

21:14.30
Geoff Openshaw
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:20.93
Patricia
I think that I think that there are a lot of policy and logistical reasons. Why women aren’t in the room to make a decision that I don’t think are theologically based I think it’s tradition based I’d like to see those go away I think that you always. Reach a better decision and consensus when more viewpoints are represented um and just the way we have it set up even in Ward Council you know I would we would be having a discussion and the bishopric would say okay, we’ve had a very good discussion. The bishopric is going to go and make the decision which I can see why they do that.

21:55.19
Geoff Openshaw
I Can’t do that. Yeah, you shouldn’t do that.

21:59.57
Patricia
But at the same time It’s like well you’re essentially just closing yourself off to people who are like you to make this decision instead of making it with a diversity of perspectives included so in this instance, it’s gender-based. But I think that also we we do need a healthy dose. Of leadership. Um from ah more global populations and make decisions and policy changes that reflect that and that’s hard to do in your centralized religion because so much of an expression of one’s faith is culturally based um. And maybe not the faith itself but the expression of that faith is very cultural. Um, so it it makes it hard to have a centralized theology and a unified church experience but also could could be more meaningful to different countries so you know ah mormons. Mormon theology started from a very american very time-based like the the questions that Joseph was answering with mormon theology came from a very specific time and place and as we grow can we expand that and let other culture let other. Questions of other cultures be answered by mormon theology as well. Um, and I think they are there has been explosive growth but explosive attrition as well. Um, in in different areas. So I think this is an open question. But I think it’s one that the church is actively seeking out on how can we. Not make it just lip service but actually make make it more global.

23:36.48
Geoff Openshaw
We’ll move on but when you’re saying that um, thinking about word council I’ve been fortunate well before they started denacting a lot of the organizational changes that we’ve had over the past couple of years I’d been in like pcs where the bishop on his own accord said like I want the relief society president in here too like. Doesn’t say that in the in the handbook or didn’t back then necessarily but the bishops like yeah this is not just going to be the high priest scru leader the elish corn president the word mission leader and me like we need the we need relief society in here for this representation pc is gone of course. Um and I think it’s great that we have the word council and the way we do things. 1 thing I noticed a slippery slope I don’t think this is a huge issue but ah, you can see how it could be because we’ve elevated the responsibilities in many ways of the relief society and eldersorn president to take a lot off the bishop’s plate which is a good thing and they and they should work 10 in tandem which I think they do by and large to get the work of the war done. 1 potential downside to this is you’ve taken a situation where before you had everybody at the same level trying to make decisions at the highest but governing bodies of your ward now you have elders corps and relief society down a level kind of managing a lot of affairs in the ward. But that kind of still leaves the bishop alone again if this makes any.

24:47.41
Patricia
Oh.

24:50.13
Geoff Openshaw
Makes sense. Um, and in some ways can remove that that structure that you could have had before to have women more directly involved. Obviously don’t think there’s any kind of bad intent for anything like that. But you could see how that could maybe be the case where you wind up with eldish Corman Relief Society being kind of their own little fifeomes. And having a lot to do when they’re very busy and they’re doing great things but you can see how they could kind of leave the the bishopric off on its own again. A little removed in that sense all right moving along here. Our good friend friend of the pod.

25:15.27
Patricia
Yeah, often it’s on. Yeah.

25:25.70
Geoff Openshaw
He’s not a friend of the pot but I did meet him once? Um, so so you heard last week that a former senate majority leader Harry Reid passed away the twin sisters talked about that and and they talked a lot about some of the things he did for the church that people probably aren’t even aware of he worked a lot behind the scenes to to further the church’s mission in Washington. So. But this past week they had his memorial service in Nevada and of course a number of dignitaries went former president Barack Obama president Joe Biden was there vice president Harris Chuck Schumer all kinds of folks were there and also present was one M Russell Ballard the acting president of the quorum of the 12 apostles and the. The articles don’t go into any kind of detail about what kind of relationship they had or if if president Ballard in particular had a significant relationship with Harry Reid Not totally sure, but in his remarks um, president Ballard was very just like complimentary. He described. President who’s tried Terry Reid as a man of faith and word and deed described him as a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ with a firm belief that we are all brothers and sisters children of a loving father in heaven which is a great nice thing to say and and also love this one part Patricia I were talking before he shared a little anecdote. I did not know that president Ballard had lost sight in one of his eyes until I read this and so he said in recent years they had a similar plight. He said we each lost sight in one eye at about the same time we knew Harry Reid did he said he lost sight in his right eye and I in my left and we used to remind each other that we could walk down the street arm in arm.

26:39.96
Patricia
Yeah I hadn’t known that either.

26:56.63
Geoff Openshaw
He could help me see things on the left and I could help him see things on the right and he kind of said that with a chuckle. Um, kind of leaning into the assumption that Harry Re was a democrat and I guess president ballard probably is a republican or something like that. You know great. But I think that’s great I love I love that there’s love here I love that there’s love here I think we forget. And our crazy internesine days as latter-day saints of late that our brethren surely have political persuasions but they’re not thinking that way and they recognize that there’s good across different people from different political persuasions and we can just be happy about that and of course. This was ah manifest as you might imagine on the for some reason still open comment section on the church’s Facebook page where they published this the same article referencing president Ballard speaking at the memorial people saying things like Harry Reid was an active leader with the modern day gandia gadiianton robbers.

27:41.90
Patricia
No.

27:51.00
Patricia
Oh cheese.

27:53.46
Geoff Openshaw
Why speak at a man’s funeral who told lies um, it just goes on and on and you know we’ve talked a lot about this over the past while especially anything you know covid related all right I appreciate the people who just said like this is a great opportunity to bear witness about Jesus Christ and that we have. And we’re trying to keep our relationship, especially with government civil Harry Reid didn’t care about our country. This reminds me I remember they did that fundraiser after Hurricane Katrina years ago when Kanye said George Bush doesn’t care about black people remember that look that up on Youtube folks. It’s it’s like it’s not funny to say no one cares about black people. But it’s funny because.

28:25.37
Patricia
That’s right.

28:33.10
Geoff Openshaw
It’s this telethon or a fundraiser and Mike Myers is up there when people cared about Mike Myers in 2005 and he reads some let’s you know some teleprompter stuff about you know what we can do to be better and and then it goes over to Kanye standing next to him and Connie just looks at the camera says George Bush doesn’t care about black people and the camera cuts away immediately to a shocked Chris Tucker who’s like oh yeah, okay I digress anyway, um, it’s there’s people who have good comments of course who don’t believe on Paul who you know said I don’t agree with his politics but he’s obviously a devout man I think some people might forget about. So of Harry Reid’s stances on some things were a little more moderate than someone his party might suggest to not always and not over any evolved over time like anybody else. But I’m just I was glad to see president ballard go and just shares some nice remarks about somebody and who cares about the politics just say this person was a good person.

29:13.87
Patricia
Um.

29:25.82
Patricia
Yeah I agree Jeff yeah I um I actually have become more politically engaged after moving away from Dc um, but when I was in Dc I went up to a fireside. He gave up north.

29:28.35
Geoff Openshaw
Yay.

29:45.20
Patricia
Um, and I was really impressed about Harry Reid’s experience and about him just saying you know taking taking your opportunities to serve others and always learn and have a compassionate mindset. Um, so it it is nice to see even though the church you know is a fit officially neutral. Um it.

29:52.13
Geoff Openshaw
Ah.

30:03.55
Patricia
Does not always feel that way so it was good to have ah to have them ah backing that up with sending somebody and president ballard speaking to you know his personal feelings towards Harry Reid and in his service. So.

30:17.64
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, and I’m reminded of like when Harry Reid spoke at Byu and he kind of famously said I’m paraphrasing but he said I’m not a democrat in spite of my lds faith I’m a democrat because of it right? and good for him and of course there’s people who are upset about this but hey I have to remember at the same time. There were also people who were very upset when.

30:26.81
Patricia
Sure yeah.

30:36.81
Geoff Openshaw
Like the tabernac choir was going to perform at president Trump’s inauguration right? And that’s the whole other side of it. So you know we can all do better. It’s at the end of the day. The church is all about just like furthering the mission of civility and the gospel and trying to find that common ground so there we go. We’re half an hour in and we have.

30:46.48
Patricia
Um, yeah.

30:55.70
Geoff Openshaw
Only hit on a couple stories Patricia because the the banter so good. It’s just so good.

30:59.60
Patricia
Ah, well there there were 2 Um I mean 1 article and then one ah well a blog I was going to call it a thought piece. But I think that’s a little generous. Um, one one piece from us the Salt Lake tribune

31:05.18
Geoff Openshaw
Mention Oh okay.

31:18.93
Patricia
Um, a discussion of Queer latter-day saints wondering if they can date and then a blog. Um I won’t read what I titled it in my notes but his thoughts of how you could use the pearl of great price to answer the question that the trip is.

31:26.80
Geoff Openshaw
Oh come on. You can’t teach.

31:36.45
Patricia
Asking which is what’s the line and and how do you be a part of the lgbt community and also the community in the mormon faith. So you know you and I talked you on the pod. You guys have talked about this concept a lot about you know where where are queer latter-day saints. In their what are the lines for them. How do they date and I just want to be clear I’m like not speaking for anyone’s experience and or passing judgment and I really do think that this is something that people struggle with and if you are struggling with it. Um. I I really feel for you if you are experiencing it but not struggling and really enjoying your your expression of your sexuality I do not judge you either? Um, but it was good to hear about different. On the spectrum from this trip article a different spectrum of people’s actual experiences and exploring where this line is they reference David Archiollta who I think was a great example of coming out and being honest and saying like look I don’t know where this is headed but I’m I’m trying to figure it out I think.

32:35.67
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

32:44.64
Patricia
Being vocal about about figuring it out and trying different things and trying to be faithful I think it’s a really really good. It’s good for everyone to hear. Um both you know people who are still still figuring their sexuality out. It’s good to have models for them. Um, of people who are going before them and trying to figure it out and it’s also good for people who don’t know a lot of individuals who are openly questioning um or part of the queer community to see that you know there’s a spectrum of experience and everyone’s just trying to. Figure out how to be a disciple of Christ um, and they’re trying to figure it out for themselves. So what struck what struck you about this article Jeff I know this is something you’ve you’ve discussed on the pod a lot.

33:28.77
Geoff Openshaw
Now.

33:34.60
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, and I would say I don’t think it like broke new ground at least for what I’ve thought about for this issue but I’m glad to see it get more coverage perhaps because we just wonder like yeah where is that line because and of course there’s like like they were interviewed Richard Ostler who was on the podcast about a year ago. Great episode folks. Go find that one? Um, but talking about kind of.

33:54.10
Patricia
Number.

33:54.50
Geoff Openshaw
You know bishops roulette cause you can have different bishops tell you different things like what’s okay and sometimes I think as as latter day saints. We like to we like to be prescriptive in our discipleship. We want someone to tell us like here is what you can and cannot do. Um. It’s understandable. You want to like keep the rules in the law of chastity. But also you know it’s on us to kind of pray about it and try to think some of these things out I don’t I don’t envy anyone who goes through these experiences and has to kind of navigate these waters. It’s not easy obviously by any stretch of the imagination and. It’s even referenced here because they they interview Stacey Harkey who was on studio c and he that’s how they lead off and he says like he went to his bishop and said like look I’m active this stuff but I want you to know I’m gonna like I’m gonna date men. Um, that reminds me of Tom Christoerson Elder Christopherson’s brother who recently said after being celibate for a number of years I’m going to date.

34:37.44
Patricia
Right? um.

34:45.21
Geoff Openshaw
His might be the biggest like green light because it’s like he’s saying I can date and you I am I’m not a betting man but I have to imagine he and Todd might have had a discussion about this this sort of issue before he went more public about about that part of it and so we just don’t know where the line is I I’m sure people want to know where the line is because they want to know what they can.

34:46.31
Patricia
Um.

35:04.86
Geoff Openshaw
Can righteously experience and I know it’s not easy because at the end of the day you can preach chastity and say you need to be chased applied by the same rules that everyone else does right? I mean the only fundamental difference is the the straight latter day Saints can.

35:06.70
Patricia
The.

35:13.36
Patricia
Little.

35:19.80
Patricia
The.

35:20.99
Geoff Openshaw
Eventually get married and be sexually active and do those things which you just cannot do as a gay member. So I don’t know like so is it okay to simply be like yep I’ve got I have a boyfriend and you know we don’t cohabitate and we don’t do anything wrong, but we might we hold hands and Kiss and stuff. But that’s where. Don’t have anything to like Add. It’s like that’s where it gets murky because some point might say like homosexual behavior not feelings but Behavior is the issue So is that homosexual behavior I mean kissing in and of itself is not homosexual Behavior. It’s just it’s just sensuality right? So It’s like.

35:39.67
Patricia
And.

35:58.35
Geoff Openshaw
And I don’t know we don’t have the answers right? And then I think the important thing is people just have to think it out and figure it out and Jeremy Goff also does not have the answers if I you want me to segue and do the other piece. No no, it is no.

36:04.82
Patricia
Well 1 one one point I will make and you touched on this Jeff is it seemed like all people that they interviewed said that the church leaders are trying to they’ve made a shift right? and they said okay whether straight or queer single latter day saints are are held to the same standard. But. All people that they talk to are saying. That’s not exactly true for some of those reasons that you said um because the end goal is held back for gay members with you know, the thought that you can’t advance it to marriage. Um, and so you know when one of the interviewees said it’s great Pr and utter rubbish. I hope that changes I hope there is through these conversations and these individuals you know unfortunately I don’t think it’s on David Archalettta’s ah responsibility to kind of pave the way for people but I’m really grateful that he’s you know. Spoken openly and honestly because I do think that if we’re going to figure out a path for people. we need to see it and we need to talk about it. So so I’m really grateful to him even though I don’t think he owes us anything but I’m I’m grateful to him for speaking about it openly and go go.

37:11.52
Geoff Openshaw
No okay.

37:18.22
Patricia
Is it go go golf or gogo Jeff. Okay, he’s always on the go I mean I wouldn’t go that far but honestly Jeff I I couldn’t finish his blog post because I found I mean I’m i.

37:19.10
Geoff Openshaw
No, it’s golf his name’s Jeremy Gough but his nickname is go-go because he’s always on the go to hell I’m just kidding. Sorry.

37:37.25
Patricia
Disagree with his conclusions. But I also found his arguments infuriating I think ah so one of your twin Facebook followers Rachel Kloss and shout out to Rachel this did sum up some of my frustrations is that he he builds in the premise that. We’re all spiritual beings and the lgbt community wants to define people by their sexuality but we’re not sexual beings. We’re spiritual beings. But then he shifts and he says that godhood is parenthood within a heterosexual marriage. So then he defines the ultimate spiritual beings by his spectrum. Sexuality and it was just this very tenuous circular argument that I just it. It. It was it made it hard for me to kind of get through his thought process. Okay.

38:22.69
Geoff Openshaw
Most most of his pieces are like that. There’s another one I found called the lie about loving the lgbtq community that many many latter day saints are believing. Yeah, the lie look I I’ve never been impressed. Ah, what the heck who cares I try to be like charitable but like Jeremy go is a bad blogger. Okay, and it’s not just that I don’t agree with his positions. He’s not a persuasive or thoughtful writer. He’s like writing stream of consciouss stuff and I don’t know where he’s from or where he actually grew up or anything like that. So I want to avoid these stereotypes but it comes up like someone who’s just raised in a certain. Bubble of thought or or honestly I would have seen myself writing some nonsense like this like immediately after my mission like when I’m super gung-ho and like yeah righteous hardcore and I just I mean there’s an audience for this and the article is specifically about how the pearl of grape.

39:19.42
Patricia
Right.

39:20.74
Geoff Openshaw
Price holds the solution to the Lgbt plus issue in the church Curiously he has dropped the queue Now there’s no just the Lgbt plus issue in the church. It’s the it’s the issue in the church and he’s yeah he talks about being your ah how being your authentic self is wrong keeps talking about the Lgbt movement.

39:28.10
Patricia
Okay.

39:39.67
Geoff Openshaw
And how it stands in contrast to all sorts of things and he does quote Elder Bednark’s elder bednars. He had that quote that talk years a couple years ago when he said like you know there are no there not there are no homosexual members of the church. We are not defined by sexual Attraction. We are not defined by sexual Behavior. We are sons and daughters of god. Some people took issue with that. You understand what Alder bedno was trying to say he’s trying to say like look. We’re all different and we have things we have things that do like express who we are and I hate to and things that do define us but the end of the day God doesn’t see us that Way. God Sees us as his Children. He loves us full stock.

40:08.78
Patricia
Sure.

40:18.71
Geoff Openshaw
Right? That’s great and that’s absolutely true, but some people take this to read someone saying like no no one should say they are a homosexual that term is loaded and it is part of ah of a terrible movement. Like this the world demands that we label ourselves by our gender pronouns and orientation. Oh yeah, is this Where is this great line. There’s this Ter. Oh here. We go just as the idolatry of old sacrificed children to false gods so too Must We sacrifice our status as as a child of god.

40:43.12
Patricia
R G is.

40:50.11
Geoff Openshaw
To Appease the pagan gods of wokeness and they must do this for to allow the idea to exist that we are children of god is to acknowledge that we have divine potential the potential for godhood. Um I love that line the whole wokeness thing I just read this and I think of that meme that just says why not both. You know that one of that girl says why not both I I’m not arguing like for like that there should be temple marriage for gape I don’t like I don’t know anything about that all I’m saying is I believe you can um, seek to be loving an understanding of our of our ggbt q brothers and sisters. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that you are sacrificing your faith at the altar of false gods at the ultra of wokeness per se I think you can have a little bit of both and be a little nuanced in your thinking I think that can be a thing.

41:32.48
Patricia
Um, and Jeff it I think it’s fair to say that I’ve met a lot of people over my life. Some of them have been heterosexual. Some of them have been homosexual that I think are further along in their journey to becoming godlike than me. Um. And I don’t think that their sexuality needs to hold them back from becoming that better more loving person. Um, so ah, this is definitely a point that go-go goff and I will have to diverge and another of your ah Facebook commenters Christopher Nicholson said

42:07.61
Geoff Openshaw
Um, go go go.

42:11.22
Patricia
I’m also still waiting for anyone to explain how being alone until you die gets you any closer to exaltation than being married to the wrong gender and I do think that this is where go go golf maybe needs to expand his circle of friends. Um I would be surprised if he passed this By. Um, a member of this community to get their thoughts. Um and he also completely disregarded that you know, kind of a complicated history of the pro of great Price. So just just many ah just many flaws in his arguments that you know what I don’t even think people need to read it.

42:48.71
Geoff Openshaw
But I might link to it just so you can leave comments on the article people 1 thing and there’s also the assumption that um, whether or not like and Peter filler up said this in the comments as well. He’s sort of waiting for the church to finally come out and say definitively whether or not sexual orientation changes in the next life. We really haven’t.

42:49.23
Patricia
Um, but you can if you want.

43:08.53
Geoff Openshaw
Said stuff about that. We just kind of ignore that potential doctrinal point and so I’d say until that time let’s just hang out and not write blog posts that argue you know, basically like you will stop being gay when you’re resurrected and then speak disparagingly about folks so I will link to this article in the notes folks. Not that I want to give anybody the traffic I don’t I don’t but I want you to write some maybe write some comments because he he he cannot help himself but respond to people’s comments even if they disagree if if they’re he does which is good to his credit. He’s not deleting comments that might disagree with him and some other articles. So.

43:30.53
Patricia
Yeah.

43:41.63
Patricia
You know? but I I will say Jeff and like I said I I do not speak from for this community and I’m only expressing my perspective and but conversations I’ve had with people but some people don’t really want there. Some people I think really. Do hope and pray and um have faith that they will not struggle with this after they die some people say you know what? this is a part of myself that I’ve come to love I don’t want this to change and so how does that fit into this eternal theology and I think we need to leave space for both of those people to.

44:02.86
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, sure.

44:20.56
Patricia
Have faith and hope in the world to come and I don’t know exactly how to do that I try to do it in my own personal worship and my relationships with people and communities and showing love and support. But you know, different different people do want something different and. Um, I think we should allow them this space to explore that. Yeah, definitely.

44:39.61
Geoff Openshaw
And recognize that we don’t have all the answers right now I mean yeah this is this is a piece that looks like it seems like it would have been written like in the run up to prop 8 in 2008 in California like that it’s a weird time all right couple quick.

44:47.69
Patricia
Yeah.

44:54.63
Geoff Openshaw
Quick mentions for all your all Ken Jennings as you know has been splitting jeopardy hosting duties after they announced their permanent host and then fired him in the same week because of sexist comments. He’d once made so Ken Jennings is there and now and by the way this was not lost I saw some other blog posted right now. The Jeopardy champion is a transgender woman and.

45:01.62
Patricia
Um, edit.

45:13.97
Geoff Openshaw
And Ken Jennings the latter-day saint is the host. He’s a pretty progressive member of the church I don’t know what his activity levels are but it’s that’s neither here nor there but 1 of the one of the answers is it is on Jeopardy was in 2018 the mormon or Lds Church announced a course correction to stress the full name that mentions. Savior and I guess and so of course the answer is what is the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. The the person did not know they just said what is the church of the latter day saints. Oh we hear that one all the time. Anyways, we made it on Jeopardy. So that’s that’s great.

45:46.98
Patricia
Well and especially because it does cut out part of the clue which is the name of the savior. But I you know in their defense I did find this clue confusing and I definitely knew the answer. It’s felt my more like.

45:56.68
Geoff Openshaw
Um, it doesn’t actually like So yeah.

46:03.77
Patricia
Just a straight up statement then an answer to a question Jeopardy question. So.

46:05.21
Geoff Openshaw
Um, exactly because because the way it’s worded is kind of funny. It just says in 2018 the church announced a course correction like it just its it doesn’t say like this church announced. Ah or this church. This church is proper name did this eye. It doesn’t it’s I just kind of worded funny jeopardy get it together jeopardy people.

46:12.88
Patricia
Right? exactly.

46:20.40
Patricia
I Know we need. We need some more vetting of those clues.

46:22.91
Geoff Openshaw
Um I want to speak about something that people ask me about quite frequently and I want to give massive props to our contributor and friend of the pod Joe Peterson um we get asked. Here and there especially after talks like El Anderson’s a a little while ago in conference you know why have we not changed our name. Why do we still have the word mormons and our title I’ve spoken about it quite a bit and 1 thing I’ve glibly said many times is I’ll change mind and once Lds living changes their name. They’re owned by the church and they’re still dropping Lds right and left so what’s the deal right um. Kudos to Joe who actually contacted them and kudos to Lds living for responding with a thoughtful completely candid response about this issue. This is the kind of thing that it’s easy on my side to be like just to like ignore the issue and just say well I’ll do an lds living does that leave me alone. Um. So they actually responded to Joe and I’m not going to read the whole thing but they said like yeah when we heard these words you know back in 2018 when when everyone was talking about this. We immediately began discussions about changing our name and and you know what? like what do we do like we don’t use the word mormon but we do say all the s and. We do a lot of things for faithful members of the church in latter day saints. We spent a long time considering what this could be. We actually made a decision to change our name into something else and began on a whole rebranding plan curious. They would say rebranding when the but when the church leaders have stressed the word rebranding is not to be used when discussing the demormoning of things but whatever. Um. But they actually took the proposed modification to the board of directors and they were surprised that the board of directors said no, you don’t need to change Lds living because it does not refer to the name of the church members of the church are appropriately really referred to as latter day saints or in this case lds. Yeah, it’s not exact so they’ve just opted not to change the name very curious to me because I have to imagine I don’t know if at the board of directors level if we’ve got like top church leadership at ld and like a deret book. Yes, at Lds living not sure and of course we’re different because we’re not saying this weekend.

48:13.52
Patricia
Yeah I was gonna ask you if you knew what that board of directors look like.

48:25.93
Geoff Openshaw
Lds we are saying using the mormon word but it is true that we are not referring to the name of the church either. We are never we have no and we’ve always been very good about that on this podcast we have I you know we don’t call it the Mormon Church um talk about the broader community the broader idea of mormonism the belief system and that’s this week in mormons is a deliberately grammatically wrong way to say this week in mormonism. That’s essentially what it is but it’s this week in mormons it’s the people. Ah so it’s maybe not a complete copout but I thought it was very funny that Lds living.

48:42.38
Patricia
Um.

48:57.93
Geoff Openshaw
Responded and was very candid about it and their experience doing So so absolute kudos to them really appreciate transparency in that regard and it provides maybe a little bit more cushion for what we are doing because we are We are speaking of the members the culture. The things we are not we are I am 100% Pro using the correct name of the church in every instance possible. Even even if it means really unwieldy headlines. Um, it’s what you do.

49:23.81
Patricia
You’re way more committed to this Jeff that I am I just frankly could not care less about it.

49:30.24
Geoff Openshaw
I’m trying to play ball like you can see a note a noticeable shift and late to in mid to in fall 2008 when at least mentions of like we stopped calling people like mormons in our articles we started saying latter day saints in general headlines I would shift though they didn’t say more is needed.

49:41.53
Patricia
Sure.

49:46.40
Geoff Openshaw
Like we try. We haven’t changed the name of the podcast. But I think we’ve done pretty and we’ve done a pretty wholesale adoption in terms of what we published that covers it.

49:52.20
Patricia
But they did specifically ask the journalistic community to shift and I think adhering to people’s style guides whenever possible is really helpful. So I think you have a pretty good reason from a professional standpoint to do it that way I guess. I just can’t get myself to care about it at all. But I know some people care about it. But I like you Jeff will try when there is a broader spectrum of mormonism not referring to the the you know the brigaite branch if you will you know.

50:20.64
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah.

50:26.34
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, so.

50:29.38
Patricia
Who people typically refer to and I think expanding your view especially in discussions about this people who identify as current members of the church people who don’t your podcast is about that whole spectrum. So.

50:39.95
Geoff Openshaw
Um, it is true. It is true and I like to say that and we do like to get into history at the same time I mean like like I’ll openly em admit though, most of what we’re covering is the brigaite group right? like I’m not covering news about the community of Christ they’ve got news affecting their community and there might be some stuff that elevate that gets elevated enough that we see it.

50:49.32
Patricia
Sure sure.

50:59.76
Geoff Openshaw
But I’m not like getting in the weeds in their general world of what’s going on right? So I you know I I know and I appreciate you getting my back there but I also want to not overrepresent myself and the love I’m giving to the picker tonights.

51:02.30
Patricia
Sure That’s a fair point.

51:12.54
Patricia
You know there there are there are some really interesting offshoots even you know current offshoots that my husband really likes to stay up on. Um, you don’t cover cover those as much but still I think using Mormon Refers to the culture.

51:24.43
Geoff Openshaw
Is your is your is your husband joining the Denver snuffer movement. Ah.

51:28.81
Patricia
And the broader culture. So I’ll give you a pass. He is not but he is fascinated by them. Um, as you know as well as some of the other some of the other spiritualists and Julie Rowe and daybell etc. He he gobbles up that news. But ah yeah.

51:52.64
Geoff Openshaw
All right? Anyways I thought you’d all appreciate that I thought it was fascinating that we got ah we got a direct response from them. So thank you Lds living appreciate it. Good for that.

51:58.48
Patricia
Yeah, yeah. So a few more articles we wanted to cover. Um, ah Jeff we talked a little bit briefly before you hit the record about the Ben Spakman article about the old testament. Um, if you haven’t read it. Um I found. Refreshing. He’s an academic but he at least in this this setting. He didn’t have that affectation. Um that sometimes academics need to have and maybe affectation shame affectation as well. Pretentious me to use but he he was pretty easy to follow. Um, he did say he he started off saying like hey I’m publishing a couple articles on this and I don’t want to scoop myself so he’s saving some of those more juicy details for the articles themselves. But it’s kind of about the history of the institute manual for the old testament from I pop. I believe published in 1980 is that right? Jeff okay, yeah, yeah.

52:58.70
Geoff Openshaw
It’s around. That’s the 1980 institute manual which I used to love I used to love to reference when I talk gospel doctor and I thought I had so many interesting tidbits great stuff.

53:04.51
Patricia
And it you know he points out that it’s still used as a primary text in a lot of countries just because you know translation is so far behind and it’s difficult. We are a global church but um, but.

53:11.91
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, wait wait wait wait wait I heard thought we were global church are you telling me we have different curricula. Oh my goge.

53:23.60
Patricia
But he did go into a really fascinating history about the the ideas that were and were not included and kind of the history goes into the history of creationism um versus evolution at biyu and some of that history and you know sometimes. You feel like because you know the church for I think good reasons tries to say oh doctrine is eternal. Um, but it changes a whole heck of a lot and you know Joseph Smith was always coming up with new and kind of crazy ideas to spark conversation. And that continued to happen but sometimes we just see our point in time and think oh this is what was always believed. But anyway he brings up a really interesting conversation that was happening at byu and kind of who won and um, the the views that are represented in the old testament. Um, spoiler alert he doesn’t like the manual. Um, so just keep that in mind. But I my interest was peaked sure sure um in no revisions. Um, but you know he peaked.

54:24.76
Geoff Openshaw
Um, at least about genesis mostly about the book of genesis. That’s what he gets no songs of solomon section is tight. Don’t worry. Very good. Very.

54:38.68
Patricia
Interest I’ll probably check out his articles when when they come out he he doesn’t reveal the author’s name because he he said he didn’t want to scoop himself. But um, but it’s It’s pretty interesting. He just yeah talks about ideas and how the brethren come to decisions about these.

54:48.47
Geoff Openshaw
Gary.

54:58.14
Patricia
These topics where there’s a lot of open questions and I thought it was a good read.

55:03.67
Geoff Openshaw
It’s funny because a lot of this is I don’t I don’t see him going after I mean he questions the content but a lot of this goes after Gary for one the unnamed author who wrote large sections of it. But I love what he taught this one paragraph and he says you know frankly, it’s bad. It quotes Joseph Fielding Smith to force a false dichotomy between faith and evolution it represents ah as reliable and good sources for latter-day saints a seventh-day Adventist. Creationism Pamphlet quoted for nearly 2000 words Melvin Cook lds chemistry professor and young earth creationist well known in the broader Christian world of creationism and Emmanuel Belikovsky Fringe russian israeli psychiatrist and catastrophist of the 1950 s and sixty s these are the things like you don’t know you’re reading because you don’t bother when you’re in these manuals to look at the footnote and see where it comes from um which is like Velikovsky proposed that the dramatic accounts in the bible egyptian chinese and mexican sources.

55:44.17
Patricia
I know.

55:57.30
Geoff Openshaw
Simple eyewitness records of natural events.

55:58.31
Patricia
He also argued that venus was a new planet and had passed very near the Earth perhaps several times. Yeah, changing the Earth’s Axis and causing severe Electromagnetic geological and meteorological and other effects and that was his.

56:02.28
Geoff Openshaw
No yes, it just kind of moved around it. Just yeah I just did its thing.

56:18.21
Patricia
His rationale for for the flood and for different events in genesis is that venus was passing close to the Earth This velicosky guy. Um, so it’s pretty. It was a pretty interesting to hear kind of the different and in the churches.

56:22.41
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

56:37.90
Patricia
Gone away from this thinking right? They like they don’t have they don’t cover it directly but they’ve kind of get away from it. But you know Ben talks about how culture and these kind of stories and kind of the way you heard it growing up continues to be what you repeat in classes. So he says that. Um, come follow me is um, come follow me. It’s easier to be updated. You know, kind of deempphasizes these aspects that are difficult to um to support. Um, but.

57:02.99
Geoff Openshaw
Oh for sure for sure.

57:15.13
Patricia
I Thought reading about the history was pretty fascinating.

57:16.84
Geoff Openshaw
Um, and the funny thing is the comments. There’s many people who come to defend Gary Gary being a righteous noble and errant individual I’m sure he’s a great person but he basically says he describes Gary’s political and religious views as landing to the right of Ezra Taft bets

57:33.31
Patricia
Which is pretty hard to do I didn’t know it was possible either. Jeff um, yeah.

57:35.87
Geoff Openshaw
Which I didn’t know was possible I mean in his view. The scriptures clearly taught that women should neither hold callings nor vote in elections. The us has already lost to the socialist be why he was more secular than the California State School system ksl was a marxist conspiracy. Um.

57:43.48
Patricia
Right.

57:51.54
Patricia
Yeah, he.

57:55.22
Geoff Openshaw
He believed in. Yeah that Ah, there’s all kinds of interesting. So it’s ah like you said fun read. Interesting stuff, Good food for thought you think about where you’re getting your information and why we and who we allow to give us that information.

57:59.93
Patricia
Yeah I mean it is interest definitely and these things that we repeat where are they coming From. You know the the article talks about how a lot of curriculum that was formed after this time is kind of in the. Like the fury of anti-socialism and kind of the communist scare even though you know it’s in the seventy s and eighty s It’s still very much during that time where leaders are impacted and sometimes the way that they interpret theology is more anti-communist than.

58:36.98
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:38.40
Patricia
Pro-christ not all the times but it’s just a good example of how our culture impacts our theology and we shouldn’t just assume that our reading of theology. Um because it reflects our culture isn’t necessarily correct.

58:52.19
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, so we’ll link to it ben backmans ah I’ve liked a lot of his articles. So check that out. Everybody. Let’s move over quickly to by common consent article here by Sam Brunson another we’ve featured a lot of his posts on here I like Sam. He writes good content butts and pews question Mark. So. The gist of it essentially is um, he’s wondering why Zoom Church is being shut down in some situations and what’s like what’s the what’s the driving force behind that because some places still have it which is interesting to me. We’ve got rid of Zoom in my ward back in like July across the board. We have not It’s not an option at all, you don’t.

59:18.98
Patricia
Um.

59:24.47
Patricia
Oh really? okay.

59:29.49
Geoff Openshaw
There’s no there’s nothing but I talked to a lot of people in even in Utah and elsewhere where there’s still a zoom option going on for individuals. So I think iss fascinating especially because we’ve talked a lot of you know you talk a lot about socio-cultural issue. Leanings in certain places. So I think it’s interesting. They’d offer something like that in some places like Utah compared to you know Northern Virginia either way after he gets through some content talking about how like you know, basically like it’s ridiculous. You won’t have online church during the omakron wave. For example. But in a post pandemic world. He’s saying I can’t think of a single compelling reason to eliminate an online church option. Um, and he does recognize that for most of us in-person church is a better experience. I think that’s that’s true, right? That’s fine, but. You know there’s a lot of perks to having online church. You have surgery your home. You’re sick, whatever you can still watch something our Zoom culture can make it as such so that if you’re back blessing a baby in your ward. You could stream it to people who couldn’t be there I mean like we we didn’t have that because we blessed our kid like right in the early days of the pandemic when my. My youngest was born. Um, but yeah, we did the whole blessing on Zoom and my and friends from around the country and even some relatives in Japan people tuned in and got to see it. We didn’t do that before the pandemic you know you just invite people to church and if they can’t be there. Well you know so be it. That’s it. So.

01:00:49.86
Patricia
And.

01:00:52.83
Geoff Openshaw
So he goes into a lot of reasons like why we be against this of course there’s probably inertia and comfort like we’re just we’re accustomed to Inperson Church and that makes sense maybe budgets a question because how do you count? you know ward attendance your budget for the war is based on sacrament meaning attendance. How do you count that if it’s Zoom numbers or not There’s a lot of things you can get on here and I can see the cases for why you would continue with online church I think a lot just kind of wanted to get back to something resembling what they’d call as normal though. I do think the more I thought about this more though Patricia there’s a certain irony to me. In the past few years we’ve switched around we do come follow me. We do home centerered church supported right? But if someone were to dare say cool I want my home centric church to be me at home teaching my kids and we can like tune in to sacramons and stuff like that. It’s funny to say like no no, no, it’s church supported but church supported means you need to be here. Physically for 2 hours which is better than three. Don’t get me wrong, but but I do think that’s kind of an interesting thing when we keep trying to say like you know it’s home focused. The church is to support it at the same time we’re not quite really like willing to sever the umbilical entirely in that and the in the case of of home centric church but.

01:02:04.73
Patricia
Well it.

01:02:07.10
Geoff Openshaw
I like going in person. It’s good to see people I think for me, it’s mostly like socialization and it probably helps me focus a little bit better because if I watch something on Zoom it’s like I’m sitting at my computer. It’s way too tempting to just like open up some browser windows I mean it’s not. It’s the equivalent of staring at my phone during ah elishorm lesson if I’m there too. But you know, but.

01:02:09.10
Patricia
Um, okay.

01:02:21.20
Patricia
Sure and this goes back to our conversation about the global religion piece is you know if the church is truly afraid people won’t come back. Um or wards. Maybe they should maybe they should be asking us Why people don’t want to come back.

01:02:33.35
Geoff Openshaw
I Think they are yeah.

01:02:39.74
Patricia
And changing that instead of changing that instead and giving people every opportunity to participate in a way that’s comfortable for them and you know there are lots of people who do have social anxiety who are on vacation which he mentions who are sick. Um, you know let them have the.

01:02:46.87
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah.

01:02:59.70
Patricia
Experience that they want to experience and really if you think that coming is important. Maybe you just make it a really compelling experience and a fun environment. Give people the things that they’re seeking for instead of trying to limit options that they find appealing to them.

01:03:15.38
Geoff Openshaw
No, and especially it’s like if church if you feel like it can become rote and predictable which it can in many cases one I hope war leaders can think about that like you said what they can do better and then you can understand from the other side of it like. Look church is just kind of like it’s ah it’s pretty predictable by the numbers. So I can either do it in person or I can just do it at my house I mean I in general I like going for me, it’s good and for me having young kids I like it because there’s a whole part of it like I can conceptualize what the difference is between going a person and being at home. Um, an adult I can do that. But if I never if my kids never go then for them. Church is always on Tv and that’s all it would ever be and so as a parent I do for me personally like the idea of taking them and letting them have that experience and like. If they were adults and wanted and wanted to be more remote but they understood it better. Okay I just don’t want to deprive them of like yeah this is like church you come we sing hymns. We have musical numbers. You have your lesson. They love going to primaryes stuff like that. So a little a little bit. Yeah or at least I don’t know if it’s inertia as much as like I just want to make sure that.

01:04:15.96
Patricia
So inertia Jeff a little bit of inertia.

01:04:25.67
Geoff Openshaw
My kids are too young to understand what the differences could be so I don’t want to take away one of the options and have them just like grow up without knowing that at all and just have that is true and right now they do. But I think it works at the same time we had state conference this weekend and they actually did all of that remotely and allowed it.

01:04:31.45
Patricia
Right? But now what right now they only have one option and that’s going in person.

01:04:44.38
Geoff Openshaw
And who boy was it fascinating to see how many people were on Zoom for like stake leadership meetings with a 70 like the kind you think they’re going to be there. Oh you know how Zoom has like pages you can scroll through of the there are like 4 4 or 5 pages of and this is a leadership meeting where where the number of attendees for this would be like what like a small sacrament meeting number typically for that kind of thing. So.

01:04:51.32
Patricia
Ah, ah, interesting.

01:05:00.62
Patricia
Um.

01:05:04.28
Geoff Openshaw
I Imagine the chapel was pretty ah pretty darn empty which is.

01:05:06.88
Patricia
Well, you know like I said maybe they should think why is this not a compelling experience for people to join and and change the experience rather than kind of harking on people and trying to get them to participate in a way that’s.

01:05:20.25
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, and that’s in a non pandemic world in a pandemic world I think we should say like we just want people to build a participate. However, they feel comfortable doing so and not force them to be in a potentially dangerous public health situation. You know, knock on wood. Um.

01:05:26.10
Patricia
Sure yeah.

01:05:36.83
Geoff Openshaw
I’m gonna pivot to 1 thing real quick this I thought this was interesting. The church did this only because it’s semi-related so 6 apostles gave devotionals over the weekend all at once just all around the world. They they spoke to this basically the 6 different.

01:05:44.94
Patricia
All at once.

01:05:51.18
Geoff Openshaw
Continental regions of the world. So you know, sorry research scientist in Antarctica these remarks were not for you. They were for everybody else globally but not for you so you had elder ukdorf elder cook elder christoppherson elder Anderson elder Rasband and elder rendlin spoke to different groups I won’t go ah wildly into detail. You can read their remarks. This was like simul cast like globally they all did different remarks but 1 that I thought was interesting elder ukdorf and his wife spoke to the asian pacific areas and the seventy who accompanied them on Sunday night. January Ninth was elder Michael John Ute who’s from the Philippines he’s in the 70 I only found this fascinating when I read the article because this was Sunday night and Sunday afternoon Michael John Uta was the presiding 70 in my state conference here in Virginia and so he clearly was a very busy man that day and flew all the way back to Salt Lake and had to be prepped for because he’s there in person with them.

01:06:46.12
Patricia
Interesting.

01:06:47.93
Geoff Openshaw
Just love thinking about how help I just I saw this like he was that That’s a busy weekend usually after state conferences. They still go in like meet with the state president some more have a little you know tie off and then they go to the airport in the afternoon and it’s not like it’s that long up but like still that’s ah utter T was was very busy that weekend. That’s all.

01:06:51.50
Patricia
That is a busy weekend.

01:07:04.86
Patricia
Ah, yeah.

01:07:07.67
Geoff Openshaw
That’s all I had for that I just wanted to I just cracked me up. Well Patricia anything else. You want to hit upon before we go.

01:07:16.60
Patricia
No, those were um, those were the ones that stood out to me anything else. You wanted to touch on Jeff.

01:07:21.12
Geoff Openshaw
Yes, 2 things 1 I absolutely am cracking up at this Facebook post by the sisters in Zion. Ah, this is just a bit of humor for all youa here. So this was this killed me. Killed me and they deserve all 124 shares and 6000 likes they got for it. It says to the couple who showers after who quote unquote showers after church while the kids are napping them. Kids ain’t sleep. They told their primary class. It sounds like yeah, all they’re exercising with the water running I’m not trying to be all his business saints. But. Some of y’all might want to add more background noise switch up your workout routine or bribe your kids with hush money because sharing time is something else. Taste is this widespread mom and dad need to take a shower is this I don’t know if this is the thing that they did people say but this just cracked me up.

01:08:13.40
Patricia
Yeah.

01:08:15.55
Geoff Openshaw
Just love this exercise time. The comments are great too. Everyone’s just like and Lo this losing a third hour put a wrench in our plans when when our kids were in primary and young men young women. We would go home during the second hour to shower and be back for the third.

01:08:31.97
Patricia
Ah, yeah, there’s there’s there were some good comments on there. You know I My daughter’s just beginning to speak and which is adorable and I love it. But there there could be some drawbacks down the road.

01:08:34.39
Geoff Openshaw
Anyway.

01:08:43.41
Geoff Openshaw
And this is all about what primary kids say this one’s totally this is like a non sequitur 1 primary kid told me once ah, all about his mom’s diarrhea. Kids are awesome and they tell and they say everything this just kills me so you know mom and dad have to take a shower apparently that’s all that’s a line.

01:09:01.56
Patricia
Yeah.

01:09:02.47
Geoff Openshaw
All need to be using and the last thing I want to leave you with even though we are long right now a fascinating piece out of st george utah dot com you didn’t want to miss this one Patricia you know you didn’t want to miss this one relationship connection.

01:09:11.90
Patricia
Oh yeah.

01:09:20.31
Geoff Openshaw
And also as a 1 commenter said I feel for the woman who’s in this stock photo that they used because everyone’s going to think she’s the problem. The headline. How can I know if I’m having inappropriate feelings for my bishop and it’s easy to laugh I mean okay I get it but I can. So get why this could be a concern for some people if you’re in a situation. It’s a bishop you’re meeting 1 on one. You’re members of the opposite sex you you talk about deep matters a lot of time deep personal matters emotional and spiritual things and you can develop a bond like that and and of how do you. You know, realize like are you feeling romantic feelings for your bishop. Are you feeling something different I like that she say the person who wrote in I do think my but he is an attractive man too. He’s really impacted my life but how can I make sure I don’t get emotionally attached the point that it would be damaging to my own marriage or I’m committing adultery in my heart I think that’s a fair question I mean. It’s a fair question I think it’s a concern I could imagine a lot of bishops those of you who have been in that role have I don’t know if there’s been a lot of like mollifying concerns from your wife or or how hard it is being perhaps the wife of a bishop and if you wonder the fact that your husband might be you know, having lots of very close and. Emotionally intimate experiences with other women which can be a dangerous thing for a marriage. So um I actually think this is worth exploring and it’s a good question to ask.

01:10:41.97
Patricia
Yeah, and I think you like it too because the author the the person to write right? back was um, a Jeff spelled the same way. Okay.

01:10:49.43
Geoff Openshaw
As this is actually the first this is actually the first I noticed that but but I do good on you g off stirr I should write him a note and say Jeffs you knight.

01:10:57.97
Patricia
Yeah, and you know Jeff you you did you did help me see that it is a I’ve never experienced kind of this. Ah this feeling that she’s feeling but you did bring up some good points and I do actually think his answers. Um, some. Questions that you should ask yourself are probably good for any relationship and you know I know that many people think about this in their professional lives. Um, and you know what’s appropriate and inappropriate to do one on 1.

01:11:19.94
Geoff Openshaw
True true.

01:11:33.84
Patricia
Um, with a member of the opposite sex. So I think these are some pretty good questions to ask yourself and keeping those relationships appropriate and I think it is good guidance. You know I’ve had you know, really well-meaning male leaders. Not want to go to lunch with me one on one and.

01:11:50.95
Geoff Openshaw
So oh as the old the old the old Mike Pence approach yeah Yeah yeah, sure yeah

01:11:52.71
Patricia
To be honest, sure and to be honest I get it but it had put me at a disadvantage professionally where my opinions. Ah my opinions weren’t known. He didn’t seek my advice and so I do think that there is. This is a good example. Her question is a relationship with the business or with a bishop that’s a totally appropriate situation and you’re not going to say don’t meet 1 on one with them unless you know there’s a specific situation. Um, and so I think it’s good to think through these questions about all.

01:12:20.84
Geoff Openshaw
M.

01:12:27.41
Patricia
Relationships where and think through how you can You can have relationships with the opposite gender have the appropriate lines. Um and bring you know, just just make sure everything’s going going. Okay, he he answers he has some questions. That you can ask yourself. Do you conceal affection from your husband. Are you nervous to share these experiences with your husband. Do you go out of your way to spend time alone. Are you preoccupied with how you present yourself. So I think these are good questions even a professional um and as somebody who. Does work and does who does need people who are predominantly men in leadership positions to take my opinion. Seriously yeah I think it is good guidance for how do you still maintain these relationships but do it appropriately.

01:13:19.60
Geoff Openshaw
Yeah, yeah, and and and the geoff connection just you know feather feather in the cap right there. Yeah, don’t that was yeah I went into that one almost as a laugh but I think there is some good stuff to discuss there. Well, it’s been quite a week

01:13:22.27
Patricia
Just really knocked it out of the park for you.

01:13:35.59
Geoff Openshaw
Butricia every week I go into the show hoping to make it only 45 to 50 minutes for our listeners and then every week. Ah no, we’ve got content. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of good content this week there’s good discussion this week look at all the good things we talked about here I mean yeah mormonism is a global religion.

01:13:37.55
Patricia
I Think that’s my fault I think it’s my fault. Okay.

01:13:53.34
Geoff Openshaw
Lgbtq Saints and dating and the line like we’ve we’ve had some good discussions about things this week important important issues but no for real. Ah the sisters lean on that more than I do I’ll call them Twinsters Twiite I should call them twiitees all about the its anyway.

01:13:55.12
Patricia
Okay, good. Well thanks for indulging me Twin nation is that way you call people twin nation. Okay twinsterswiites. Yes, ah.

01:14:12.40
Geoff Openshaw
Ah, folks thanks for listening appreciate. It can’t do it without you so please share this show with everyone you know and love and have them share it with 2 friends and then with two friends and build your downstream of twin. It’s very important that you do that if you do this, you will be blessed seriously so blessed Patricia delightful to have you once more thanks for taking the time. Yep and yeah.

01:14:26.85
Patricia
Thanks everyone good to talk to you again.

01:14:31.51
Geoff Openshaw
Talk to you allll later I’m Jeff that was Patricia this has been this week in mormons a non- Lds living podcast and we’ll talk to you again next week see you later byebye.

 

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